Coronavirus

[Serial_Apologist]

Food for thought!

[Bryn]

A useful armoury against the COVID-19 conspiracy believers:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2020/nov/29/how-to-deal-with-a-conspiracy-theorist-5g-covid-plandemic-qanon

[oddoneout]

The question of vaccine refusers and anti-vaxers (not necessarily the same thing) came up on a Zoom social last week, so I was interested to read this https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...9-anti-vaxxers which seems to me to be the constructive approach to such issues. Sadly it is not one which is likely to find favour. As with so many other topics the priority is to ensure that the facts - rather than opinions or propaganda - are available and then accept that where there is choice some/many will make the 'wrong' choice. Sadly constructive thinking and awareness of human behaviour have not been a feature of Covid management (or at least the English/Westminster sections of admin ) to date and I doubt this issue will be any different, and won't be helped by the lack of trust in 'them' that so many in this country now feel.

[Serial_Apologist]

A useful armoury against the COVID-19 conspiracy believers:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/...landemic-qanon

Were I a conspiracy monger, I could probably refute most if not all those arguments, including the friendly persuasiveness approach, which could be viewed as grooming! - that's the problem in trying to deal with people of fixated views. Why otherwise have various religions gained such strong holds over so many people?

[Dave2002]

..... including the friendly persuasiveness approach, which could be viewed as grooming! - that's the problem in trying to deal with people of fixated views. Why otherwise have various religions gained such strong holds over so many people?

One merit of the friendly persuasiveness approach is that it may terminate discussion, allowing "you" to exit and use your own time better elsewhere. We don't all have "to deal with" people with fixed views, or try to convert them, or point out the errors of their ways - unless they present a real threat. There are some people who are (IMO) misguided who have crazy views, but are otherwise perfectly reasonable, with perhaps many "good" qualities. Sometimes one learns to live with them, though one doesn't have to take notice of their mad notions, or give any impression that one agrees with them.

[Serial_Apologist]

One merit of the friendly persuasiveness approach is that it may terminate discussion, allowing "you" to exit and use your own time better elsewhere. We don't all have "to deal with" people with fixed views, or try to convert them, or point out the errors of their ways - unless they present a real threat. There are some people who are (IMO) misguided who have crazy views, but are otherwise perfectly reasonable, with perhaps many "good" qualities. Sometimes one learns to live with them, though one doesn't have to take notice of their mad notions, or give any impression that one agrees with them.

Well, especially in the wake of BLM, as regards readiness to forfeit an argument, I draw the line at racism. I hope this is not an indication of sanctimoniousness on my part - I genuinely feel ill after arguments of this kind as a consequence of not coping with my own anger, which is not often exercised and therefore a source of lessons in dealing with it. But it's funny that this has come up here; yesterday an acquaintance, whom I would normally consider a friend, came over strongly antisemitic in a broad telephone conversation about politics, this time, unlike previously when I've distinguished antisemitism from anti-Zionism, wanting to know if I agreed with him or not. In the past I'd tried pointing out the difference; this time, effectively put on the spot, I made it clear that I strongly disagreed with him. This had the merits of him leaving the subject to talk about something else, since we seem to agree on most other contentious subjects, and I am left feeling annoyed at myself for not going on to list the numerous good exemplars in history, in arts, philosophy and the sciences, without whose presence the world would be a poorer place, who just happened to be jews. A common example of knowing what I should have said too late!

[Dave2002]

I'm not suggesting that you should forfeit an argument if you have strong beliefs, and your "opponent" isn't going to give way. One of my examples is someone who seems to believe in homeopathy and reflexology, but is otherwise a pretty decent human being. Tolerance and a certain amount of humouring rather than confrontation seems to me to be the way to deal with that person.

[Dave2002]

Why does one of the curent vaccine options require storage at very low temperatures? Is this unusual? Does it degrade rapidly if the temperature is raised?
Does its efficacy change if the temperature is raised somewhat?

Just listening to comments on R4 about the kind of refrigeration needed to keep it in condition, and it does make me seriously wonder if it's a sensible option. If it works, and that's the only way, well that's a good thing, but it seems odd to me that anyone would have made a vaccine which would only work under such severely restricted environmental conditions. What led them to try that?

[Bryn]

Why does one of the curent vaccine options require storage at very low temperatures? Is this unusual? Does it degrade rapidly if the temperature is raised?
Does its efficacy change if the temperature is raised somewhat?

Just listening to comments on R4 about the kind of refrigeration needed to keep it in condition, and it does make me seriously wonder if it's a sensible option. If it works, and that's the only way, well that's a good thing, but it seems odd to me that anyone would have made a vaccine which would only work under such severely restricted environmental conditions. What led them to try that?

Did you listen to the responses offered by those gathered to make them? From previous such broadcasts, I have gleaned that this is by no means the first vaccine to require very low-temperature storage and that this one does not seriously degrade for at least a couple of days once transferred to standard refrigerator temperatures but that it does not retain potency if re-frozen to -70 degrees C.

[johnb]

I'm puzzled by all the talk in recent days/weeks about university students being tested before returning home.

The impression given is that it is going/has gone swimmingly. However I gather that, in Bristol, many of the students returned home before the tests

There was an official from Bristol University on one of the Radio 4 news programmes a few days ago who said that they had 12,000 tests to be used on students. The problem is that there are 20,000 undergrad students (or 27,500 students in total) and each would need two tests, so only a maximum of a third of their undergrad students can get tested.

[oddoneout]

Why does one of the curent vaccine options require storage at very low temperatures? Is this unusual? Does it degrade rapidly if the temperature is raised?
Does its efficacy change if the temperature is raised somewhat?

Just listening to comments on R4 about the kind of refrigeration needed to keep it in condition, and it does make me seriously wonder if it's a sensible option. If it works, and that's the only way, well that's a good thing, but it seems odd to me that anyone would have made a vaccine which would only work under such severely restricted environmental conditions. What led them to try that?

It's a sensible option if there is the infrastructure, but that is the rub for much of the world's population. 'Ordinary' vaccines such as measles and polio need a refrigerated(not ultra low) cold chain and failures affect the potency of the vaccine and so the protection achieved. It's a big problem for rural areas in developing countries in particular. The Pfizer vaccine just wouldn't be an option there.
One of the aims of the so-called Oxford vaccine is for it to be more accessible in terms of cost(£3 cf £20) and logistics.

[Dave2002]

I suppose part of my original question hinges on the word “why”. Now that the vaccine exists it is as it is, and the infrastructure would be needed, as you say. However - what motivated them to think up and design a vaccine which would need such cold storage? That is one of the “why”s which puzzles me.

[Bryn]

I suppose part of my original question hinges on the word “why”. Now that the vaccine exists it is as it is, and the infrastructure would be needed, as you say. However - what motivated them to think up and design a vaccine which would need such cold storage? That is one of the “why”s which puzzles me.

I very much doubt that the need for such low temperature storage was part of the design specification, more a property that emerged in the course of its development, had to be accepted and dealt with as best they could.

[Richard Barrett]

I very much doubt that the need for such low temperature storage was part of the design specification, more a property that emerged in the course of its development, had to be accepted and dealt with as best they could.

mRNA-based vaccines like this one (which is actually be the first such vaccine to have passed clinical trials) need to be stored at very low temperatures because mRNA molecules are fragile and degrade easily. No doubt the manufacturers have calculated the tradeoff between the storage temperature and the proportion of non-degraded mRNA in a dose. These vaccines are easier and cheaper to produce than more traditional types of vaccine like the Oxford one, which on the other hand won't require such cold storage.

[oddoneout]

For now I take the view that it is a good thing there is more than one line of vaccine development. With the virus itself being so much of an unknown quantity in terms of what it does and how and to whom, and with the vaccines having to be developed so quickly, it seems wise to have options.
Something that seems to me might be an issue once the jabs get under way is that I gather participation in trials by the BAME community is/has been low and that section of the population tends to be harder to engage with vaccination anyway, yet it is known they are at greater risk.