Coronavirus

[Serial_Apologist]

I think a more immediate problem is going to be the hassle for shopkeepers dealing with a mix of those who've 'forgotten' their masks, those who won't wear them, and the frankly confused and/or unaware.
I suspect that in terms of online shopping this latest edict may make those who've already been doing it to continue, I don't know if the numbers of new shoppers going that way would be significant, There may be some people who will venture back to real shopping now who didn't feel comfortable before.
Longer term unemployment will have an impact on retail of whatever form and in whatever location.

The main practical problem with having to mask up indoors is misted up spectacles, for those like me who have to wear them. As soon as this happens the only solution is to remove glasses and wipe with a tissue - rather defeating the whole idea of protecting others. Does anybody know of better ways to prevent this steaming up happening? I've heard of various "solutions", such as rubbing soap over the lenses.

Something was being said yesterday to the effect that the new ruling (which has not come to be true) would also involve face masks having to be three layers thick. Afaik my stock of the readily available types are all one layer only - maybe if this turns out to be so, they'll permit us to wear three at a time .

[Bryn]

The main practical problem with having to mask up indoors is misted up spectacles, for those like me who have to wear them. As soon as this happens the only solution is to remove glasses and wipe with a tissue - rather defeating the whole idea of protecting others. Does anybody know of better ways to prevent this steaming up happening? I've heard of various "solutions", such as rubbing soap over the lenses.

Something was being said yesterday to the effect that the new ruling (which has not come to be true) would also involve face masks having to be three layers thick. Afaik my stock of the readily available types are all one layer only - maybe if this turns out to be so, they'll permit us to wear three at a time .

It has been suggested that applying a thin film of washing up liquid or liquid soap helps prevent misting up. I have not tried it yet but will.

[Serial_Apologist]

It has been suggested that applying a thin film of washing up liquid or liquid soap helps prevent misting up. I have not tried it yet but will.

It seemed to work just now - any misting up disappearing immediately on finishing the out-breath. How much of that may be down to the weather being warm today is another thing. For clear vision one first needs to rinse the soap off, of course.

[johnb]

I know what you mean about glasses misting up. The first time I wore a face mask was when I was handed one at the Bristol Eye Hospital reception some weeks ago. By the time I had walked upstairs to the particular department's own reception desk I couldn't see a thing. Took my glasses off - couldn't see a thing. Put them back on - couldn't see a thing. Degenerated into a confused oldie. I could hear the receptionists thinking "Poor old dear, I suppose we all get like that eventually."

I wonder whether saliva would work. I seem to remember a swimming instructor recommending it to prevent swimming goggles misting up.

[oddoneout]

The main practical problem with having to mask up indoors is misted up spectacles, for those like me who have to wear them. As soon as this happens the only solution is to remove glasses and wipe with a tissue - rather defeating the whole idea of protecting others. Does anybody know of better ways to prevent this steaming up happening? I've heard of various "solutions", such as rubbing soap over the lenses.

Something was being said yesterday to the effect that the new ruling (which has not come to be true) would also involve face masks having to be three layers thick. Afaik my stock of the readily available types are all one layer only - maybe if this turns out to be so, they'll permit us to wear three at a time .

Wales I think, and for public transport.

[Pulcinella]

It has been suggested that applying a thin film of washing up liquid or liquid soap helps prevent misting up. I have not tried it yet but will.

Worth checking first if there's a special (anti-glare?) coating on the lenses that might be damaged by washing-up liquid or liquid soap.

[oddoneout]

Masks with a metal strip across the nose can be made to fit better and reduce the amount of surplus air going up, they also make it easier for glasses to go over that bit of the covering, again reducing the amount of stray air. The many online sources of help with making fabric masks often include suggestions for making a casing to hold a piece of wire such as a pipe cleaner. That idea makes me wince slightly - sharp wire next to eyes...to say nothing of problems if it goes through the wash.
This seems as good a summary as any https://www.specsavers.co.uk/covid19...with-face-mask
One thing mentioned in several places is to be careful that whatever you use or do won't damage any coatings that might be on the lenses - this is probably more of an issue with anti-fog sprays rather than things like detergent.
Incidentally the requirement is for 'face covering' as far as I can see which means it doesn't have to be a mask - could be a scarf so long as it covers the nose and mouth.
Somewhat ironic that when I was looking up to check on that the first entry was a clear simple summary from Newsround, and a selection of other media articles - but nothing from gov.uk on that first page. I suppose they've been too busy doing the Brexit ads.

[Pianorak]

Masks with a metal strip across the nose can be made to fit better and reduce the amount of surplus air going up, they also make it easier for glasses to go over that bit of the covering, again reducing the amount of stray air. . .

Spot on - works a treat, at least for me!

[teamsaint]

This is definitely worth reading, from the New Zealand government.

https://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/documents/pages/review_of_science_and_policy_around_face_masks_and_covid-19-15may2020.pdf

Not exactly a ringing endorsement of mask use in many contexts.

[johnb]

This is definitely worth reading, from the New Zealand government.

https://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/documents/pages/review_of_science_and_policy_around_face_masks_and_covid-19-15may2020.pdf

Not exactly a ringing endorsement of mask use in many contexts.

That report is dated 15th May and the advice of the WHO for one (quoted in the report) has changed since that date. It is now that masks should be worn in situations where social distancing is not possible.

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks

(scroll down towards the bottom of the page for the pdf download of the full report

The report by the Royal Society and British Academy dated 26th June comes to a similar conclusion and is most definitely worth reading.

https://royalsociety.org/-/media/policy/projects/set-c/set-c-facemasks.pdf?la=en-GB&hash=A22A87CB28F7D6AD9BD93BBCBFC2BB24

The president of the Royal Society has written urging everyone to use them.

https://royalsociety.org/news/2020/07/president-of-the-royal-society-urges-everyone-to-wear-a-face-covering/

(Both reports also address the effectiveness of various types of masks.)

[oddoneout]

This is definitely worth reading, from the New Zealand government.

https://www.health.govt.nz/system/files/documents/pages/review_of_science_and_policy_around_face_masks_and_covid-19-15may2020.pdf

Not exactly a ringing endorsement of mask use in many contexts.

I think it's a bit like the Bible - you can find 'evidence' to support a given opinion if you look selectively. As it's a review details such as trial size is not presented to judge the quoted conclusions against and one could come up with some attention grabbing headlines quite easily - and misleadingly. Some of the content isn't really that surprising - using face masks in ways not intended or not fitted correctly will cause problems in terms of efficacy, and is a problem all too well known by those 'on the frontline' struggling with inappropriate, insufficient, badly designed PPE.
Something that would be useful with regard to the general public wanting to use and/or make facecoverings whether of mask design or not would be the facts around what type of fabric or combination of fabric would be best, mentioned in a couple of the articles quoted. I would also want to know about the effect of repeated washing; there was mention it reduced the barrier effect, but why, what type of wash, any difference between fabrics.

[teamsaint]

That report is dated 15th May and the advice of the WHO for one (quoted in the report) has changed since that date. It is now that masks should be worn in situations where social distancing is not possible.

https://www.who.int/emergencies/diseases/novel-coronavirus-2019/advice-for-public/when-and-how-to-use-masks

(scroll down towards the bottom of the page for the pdf download of the full report

The report by the Royal Society and British Academy dated 26th June comes to a similar conclusion and is most definitely worth reading.

https://royalsociety.org/-/media/policy/projects/set-c/set-c-facemasks.pdf?la=en-GB&hash=A22A87CB28F7D6AD9BD93BBCBFC2BB24

The president of the Royal Society has written urging everyone to use them.

https://royalsociety.org/news/2020/07/president-of-the-royal-society-urges-everyone-to-wear-a-face-covering/

(Both reports also address the effectiveness of various types of masks.)

Well again, the Royal Society report is a long way from convincing, and the benefits that they suggest have very heavy caveats particularly in terms of how use of masks is implemented and how it sits within other messages around spread of disease.
In any case , it is quite clear that the new directive about use in shops is primarily economic.

[johnb]

By the way, in view of today's death toll I've updated the table I posted a few days ago.

The hospital deaths reflect infections in the general community whereas the majority of non-hospital deaths probably occurred in care homes.

I find the non-hospital deaths worrying.

[B]Covid-19 confirmed deaths in England[/B]

Date		Total	England Hosp	Non-Hosp*
		UK	Only	Deaths	Deaths
04/07/2020	 67	 59	39	 20
05/07/2020	 22	 21	18	  3 (Sun)
06/07/2020	 16	 16	15	  1 (Mon)
07/07/2020	155	152	36	116
08/07/2020	126	121	42	 79
09/07/2020	 85	 82	22	 60
10/07/2020	 48	 48	22	 26
11/07/2020	148	147	38	109
12/07/2020	 21	 21	15	  6 (Sun)
13/07/2020	 11	 11	11	  0 (Mon)
14/07/2020	138	134	26	108	

* presumably mostly in care homes

Later Edit: The accuracy of the daily death figures from PHE (used in the above table) have now been called into question and their publication has been suspended while a review is undertaken. Please disregard the table as it is based on this inaccurate data.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

I’m closing this thread for 24 hours.
When it reopens, please show respect for one another, by not attacking other posters. Disagreement is fine.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

This thread has now been reopened, following consultation between the Hosts.

A discussion between two valued and respected forum members about the use of face masks became heated yesterday, with others contributing, perhaps in an attempt to help. The viewpoints expressed in writing were perhaps not intended to be hurtful on either side, and had the conversation taken place between two friends in spoken conversation, no misunderstandings would have occurred. Internet forums rely on the written word, the effect of which is often unpredictable.
Many of the points made were valid, but the conversation has been removed, as things said online cannot easily be unsaid.

We ask, therefore that no attempt is made to restart this particular conversation, though general discussion of face masks can of course continue.