Coronavirus

[jayne lee wilson]

Not looking good....!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-53175459

Is this as bad as it looks...?

[oddoneout]

And the PM is relying on the public's common sense...

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/25/major-incident-declared-as-people-flock-to-england-south-coast

[Bryn]

I note that while the Israeli Police have issued a statement that they do not use the knee on neck technique, it was not the Israeli Police who were cited as influencing American Police. It was the Israeli Secret Service. Whether the claim re seminars was accurate has not as yet been addressed, as far as I have seen. I do not know whether it was true or not, and I suspect neither does Starmer.

Hmm, now I find this: https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20...-is-spineless/ . Looks like there was more to what Maxine Peake had to say in her Independent interview after all. Of course, the photographs of Israeli Police et al using the knee on neck method may have been staged. The whole of the Middle East Monitor piece could, of course, be 'fake news'.

[Dave2002]

Hmm, now I find this: https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20...-is-spineless/ . Looks like there was more to what Maxine Peake had to say in her Independent interview after all. Of course, the photographs of Israeli Police et al using the knee on neck method may have been staged. The whole of the Middle East Monitor piece could, of course, be 'fake news'.

I'm not sure that this diversion is relevant to the discussion of coronavirus, but I have to say that although I've not been a fan of Rebecca Long Bailey up to now, it's looking to me now that she has more "right" on her side than Starmer. There is a huge distinction between discriminating against and slandering Jewish people and criticising the Israeli government and its agents. Of course I may be totally misinterpreting this, but by trying to act against one problem Starmer is possibly falling into another elephant trap.

[Bryn]

I'm not sure that this diversion is relevant to the discussion of coronavirus, but I have to say that although I've not been a fan of Rebecca Long Bailey up to now, it's looking to me now that she has more "right" on her side than Starmer. There is a huge distinction between discriminating against and slandering Jewish people and criticising the Israeli government and its agents. Of course I may be totally misinterpreting this, but by trying to act against one problem Starmer is possibly falling into another elephant trap.

It's only right that I also link to the Wikipedia item on Middle East Monitor (MEMO): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Monitor .

[Serial_Apologist]

It's only right that I also link to the Wikipedia item on Middle East Monitor (MEMO): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Middle_East_Monitor .

If John Ware of the BBC says it is pro-Hamas, then it must be true.

[johnb]

I think the business of whether or not the US police were taught the knee on neck technique by the Israelis is a complete irrelevance. The death of Keith Floyd was caused by the police officer sustaining that technique for almost nine minutes. Nine Minutes.

For Maxime Peake and, by quoting her, RLB to bring the Israelis into the discussion of what happened to Keith Floyd merely distracts attention away from the reality of the events in America and does nothing what-so-ever to assist the BLM campaign.

After the furore that antisemitism has caused within the Labour Party it beggers belief that RLB would give it the opportunity to raise its head again. IMO Keir Starmer had little option but to take the steps he took. He asked RLB to delete the tweet or retweet and she refused.

[Count Boso]

johnb, I read the situation in exactly that way. It may be that Starmer was too quick (eager?) to act and it was probably/certainly the case that L-B had barely noticed the offending reference in a long interview where MP was expounding other ideas. L-B linked to the article because she was in favour of 99% of what was said. The circumstances around her being asked to remove the tweet/link are a little cloudy.

I imagine the BDBJ got immediately on to the Independent (who adjusted the article) and to Starmer who, given his stance on antisemitism, felt obliged to act. How far L-B cooperated or not is a matter for conjecture.

Also whether publishing an untrue statement about the Israeli secret services is anti-semitic or anti-Israeli sort of depends. It tends to tie the Jewish people in with the death of George Floyd

I think the business of whether or not the US police were taught the knee on neck technique by the Israelis is a complete irrelevance. The death of [George] Floyd was caused by the police officer sustaining that technique for almost nine minutes. Nine Minutes.

For Maxime Peake and, by quoting her, RLB to bring the Israelis into the discussion of what happened to Keith Floyd merely distracts attention away from the reality of the events in America and does nothing what-so-ever to assist the BLM campaign.

After the furore that antisemitism has caused within the Labour Party it beggers belief that RLB would give it the opportunity to raise its head again. IMO Keir Starmer had little option but to take the steps he took. He asked RLB to delete the tweet or retweet and she refused.

[LMcD]

I think the business of whether or not the US police were taught the knee on neck technique by the Israelis is a complete irrelevance. The death of Keith Floyd was caused by the police officer sustaining that technique for almost nine minutes. Nine Minutes.

For Maxime Peake and, by quoting her, RLB to bring the Israelis into the discussion of what happened to Keith Floyd merely distracts attention away from the reality of the events in America and does nothing what-so-ever to assist the BLM campaign.

After the furore that antisemitism has caused within the Labour Party it beggers belief that RLB would give it the opportunity to raise its head again. IMO Keir Starmer had little option but to take the steps he took. He asked RLB to delete the tweet or retweet and she refused.

Maxine Peake has now acknowledged that the passage in question was 'inaccurate' - and there I was, thinking that established actors are meant to have mastered their lines and the art of timing. I would think that Keir Starmer's actions can only help his party on its long journey back to power.

[Bryn]

. . . whether publishing an untrue statement about the Israeli secret services is anti-semitic or anti-Israeli sort of depends. It tends to tie the Jewish people in with the death of George Floyd

No! It says nothing about the Jewish people. It relates only to a perceived link between the Israeli state and the USA's law enforcement departments. There can be no doubt about the interference in the political life of many countries by Israeli state agencies. Occasionally they are caught red-handed and individual functionaries get recalled to Israel. The well researched Al Jazeera series of documentaries, The Lobby did an excellent job of exposing the manipulation of not only the British Labour Party but various other aspects of UK political life. There are many within the Jewish population of Israel who oppose such interference by their state intelligence services.

[Joseph K]

No! It says nothing about the Jewish people. It relates only to a perceived link between the Israeli state and the USA's law enforcement departments. There can be no doubt about the interference in the political life of many countries by Israeli state agencies. Occasionally they are caught red-handed and individual functionaries get recalled to Israel. The well researched Al Jazeera series of documentaries, The Lobby did an excellent job of exposing the manipulation of not only the British Labour Party but various other aspects of UK political life. There are many within the Jewish population of Israel who oppose such interference by their state intelligence services.

[Count Boso]

No! It says nothing about the Jewish people. It relates only to a perceived link between the Israeli state and the USA's law enforcement departments. There can be no doubt about the interference in the political life of many countries by Israeli state agencies. Occasionally they are caught red-handed and individual functionaries get recalled to Israel. The well researched Al Jazeera series of documentaries, The Lobby did an excellent job of exposing the manipulation of not only the British Labour Party but various other aspects of UK political life. There are many within the Jewish population of Israel who oppose such interference by their state intelligence services.

Your acolyte agrees with you. But as johnb pointed out, there was no need even to mention a connection with the Israeli state and the US police, particularly when the reference to 'interference by their state intelligence services' has now been withdrawn. Sensitiviities exist on all sides.

But I'm disappointed that no one took up the challenge of my thread 'Why people ignore facts', when it's clear that tribal loyalties - on ALL sides - come into play all the time. With ALL of us.

PS As I said,I think Starmer may have overreacted, but I undertand why he might have done. His job is to defeat this government at the next election.

[Bryn]

Your acolyte agrees with you. But as johnb pointed out, there was no need even to mention a connection with the Israeli state and the US police, particularly when the reference to 'interference by their state intelligence services' has now been withdrawn. Sensitiviities exist on all sides.

But I'm disappointed that no one took up the challenge of my thread 'Why people ignore facts', when it's clear that tribal loyalties - on ALL sides - come into play all the time. With ALL of us.

PS As I said,I think Starmer may have overreacted, but I undertand why he might have done. His job is to defeat this government at the next election.

I have no acolyte, here or anywhere else. Re Maxine Peake's withdrawn as "inaccurate" assertion that the officer accused of murdering George Floyd had been taught the knee on neck technique in Israeli run seminars, this Guardian piece might be of interest: https://www.theguardian.com/politics...i-police-links , as might https://www.amnestyusa.org/with-whom...olator-israel/ . So Maxine Pike's use of the term "inaccurate" would appear to be more apposite than the term "false". Photographic evidence of Israeli state functionaries engaging in knee on neck restraint acts to reinforce the relevance of the USA/Israeli police training links.

However, this is taking this thread too far away from its title, a subject upon which Israel appears to be demonstrating somewhat shaky grasp: https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...covid-19-cases . Let us hope the reintroduction of their tracking system has positive results against COVID-19 without too great an attendance of civil liberty infractions.

[Count Boso]

So, to get back to the subject of coronavirus, I see epidemiologist Anders Tegnell takes the same view as me:

' "Swedish officials, including the architect of the country’s measures to stop the spread of the coronavirus, Anders Tegnell, are not amused. They say Swedes have been stigmatized by an international campaign to prove Sweden was wrong and warn their neighbors that they are going to be much more vulnerable if a second wave of the virus hits in the fall.

“We are really confident that our immunity is higher than any other Nordic country’s,” Mr. Tegnell said during a news conference last week.'

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/06/22/world/europe/sweden-coronavirus-pariah-scandinavia.html

That was the point I was trying to make about raves, unwise or very wise indeed, that if there is a second wave, people who have been out and about will be more likely to have gained this immunity than those who have been locked away (whether 'obeying orders' or just fearful to venture out).

[johnb]

That was the point I was trying to make about raves, unwise or very wise indeed, that if there is a second wave, people who have been out and about will be more likely to have gained this immunity than those who have been locked away (whether 'obeying orders' or just fearful to venture out).

I hope that is the case but, at the moment, it is uncertain as to how long any immunity will last.

On the 18th June there was a paper published in Nature where 37 asymptomatic and 37 symptomatic patients were studied. The primary aim of the paper was to examine the antibody levels in the asymptomatic group but there were interesting findings in the symptomatic group.

I quote from Prof Liam Smeeth, Professor of Clinical Epidemiology, London School of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine:

"This is an interesting study with important findings. Around one fifth of people infected developed no symptoms. The key important finding was that markers of likely immunity to SARS-CoV-2 reduced quite rapidly in many people. While this reduction was greater in those who never had symptoms, quite marked reductions were seen in some of those who had symptomatic COVID-19. This strongly suggests that immunity may well diminish within months of infection for a substantial proportion of people. We need larger studies with longer follow-up in more populations, but these findings do suggest that we cannot rely on people having had proven infections nor on antibody testing as strong evidence of long term immunity."

It was only a small study so its results should be treated with some caution but, if validated, it has implications for vacine treatments.

The above quote and other scientific reaction to the paper can be read here: https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/e...v-2-infection/

The paper is beyond me but this is a link to it: https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0965-6