Coronavirus

[Anastasius]

At what point do you think such trials should happen, S-A?

Everybody in vulnerable groups has been offered at least one vaccine. Incidence is low. We are out of the main season for respiratory disease. There is evidence of herd immunity. People attending are either vaccinated or tested.

( Though as we know,vaccinated people can still spread the virus......)

There is evidence of herd immunity.

Who says that, TS ? Source please.

And ...

Though as we know,vaccinated people can still spread the virus. And compared to someone not vaccinated and with a significantly higher viral load is what ? About 1% the risk to others?

[Anastasius]

Because they have covid antibodies.

The question in fact should be “ why would they want the vaccine when they have antibodies, and there are known serious side effects from the vaccine, especially for younger people”.

You are starting to sound more and more like the sort of headlines that the Daily Mail screams out, TS. You make these sweeping statements without any attempt at quantifying them.

[Anastasius]

So the figures you show are the risk profile for those without prior immunity ? Evidence about how these particular vaccines work for those with prior immunity must be very sketchy at best, at present?

Straws. Grasping.

[teamsaint]

There is evidence of herd immunity.

Who says that, TS ? Source please.

And ...

Though as we know,vaccinated people can still spread the virus. And compared to someone not vaccinated and with a significantly higher viral load is what ? About 1% the risk to others?

Lots of reputable sources are suggesting that herd immunity is probably kicking in.

I wasn’t comparing the risk of transmission between unvaccinated and vaccinated. Just pointing out that there is a measurable risk that vaccinated people can transmit the disease, something that seems to be less widely understood than you might think. This is important.

[teamsaint]

Straws. Grasping.

No, trying to read the figures that LHC posted. And putting the evidence in context, which is important.

[teamsaint]

You are starting to sound more and more like the sort of headlines that the Daily Mail screams out, TS. You make these sweeping statements without any attempt at quantifying them.

You’ll see that upthread I quoted the ONS figures, and asked a question. How much quantifying do you want beyond ONS figures?

Which is a long way from your take on it, which hasn’t added anything to the discussion, in fact.

[oddoneout]

I found this article interesting as it touches on a question that arose in my mind after hearing about the antibody levels in those who are neither vaccinated nor known to have contracted the disease. I remember at school there was a preliminary stage to the BCG vaccine to test for natural/pre-existing immunity, and I was told that my grandmother had natural immunity.

https://www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3563

Tragic as the consequences of the pandemic have been and continue to be, it has accelerated research in areas which will help with the treatment of disease, whether pandemic or not, in future.

[Anastasius]

Because they have covid antibodies.

The question in fact should be “ why would they want the vaccine when they have antibodies, and there are known serious side effects from the vaccine, especially for younger people”.

.....
Can you perhaps confirm, given your views on the Covid vaccination, that you will be declining the opportunity when it arises ?

[Anastasius]

You’ll see that upthread I quoted the ONS figures, and asked a question. How much quantifying do you want beyond ONS figures?

Which is a long way from your take on it, which hasn’t added anything to the discussion, in fact.

Others have done it already and far more eloquently than I can. Just that you refuse to accept it.

[teamsaint]

You are starting to sound more and more like the sort of headlines that the Daily Mail screams out, TS. You make these sweeping statements without any attempt at quantifying them.

Can you perhaps confirm, given your views on the Covid vaccination, that you will be declining the opportunity when it arises ?

You have no idea what my views are on covid vaccination, I’d suggest, other than you will have gathered that I don’t think we should vaccinate people in cases where it is not necessary. Which is self evident of course.
My decisions are my own business, nobody elses.

[teamsaint]

Others have done it already and far more eloquently than I can. Just that you refuse to accept it.

No, I asked a question to clarify an important point.
You are trolling, not engaging with the subject.

[Bryn]

Lots of reputable sources are suggesting that herd immunity is probably kicking in.

I wasn’t comparing the risk of transmission between unvaccinated and vaccinated. Just pointing out that there is a measurable risk that vaccinated people can transmit the disease, something that seems to be less widely understood than you might think. This is important.

Certainly, herd immunity is 'kicking in'. That's what mass immunisation accelerates. There are two principal routes to herd immunity. previous infection and immunisation. Far better to gain it though the latter than the former. What I would question is whether you understand the relative level of contribution to spreading to which virus sheding by those immunised might make?

[teamsaint]

Certainly, herd immunity is 'kicking in'. That's what mass immunisation accelerates. There are two principal routes to herd immunity. previous infection and immunisation. Far better to gain it though the latter than the former. What I would question is whether you understand the relative level of contribution to spreading to which virus sheding by those immunised might make?

Yes, I think I probably do understand that in in its correct context, ie that transmission happens less often, and to less effect.
It is an important point. But it is also important, both medically and socially, that we understand that vaccination does not mean that people cannot transmit the virus. But unfortunately that understanding doesn’t seem to be widely understood, and ( wilfully) isn’t informing public policy.

[LHC]

So the figures you show are the risk profile for those without prior immunity ? Evidence about how these particular vaccines work for those with prior immunity must be very sketchy at best, at present?

its worth remembering as well that, although young people are at much less risk of hospitalisation and death from Covid, there is also the risk of additional complications from a Covid infection such as Long Covid, which are still not well understood. These longer terms effects will only become known and better understood over time, so the risk profile for younger people could well change. There is also some evidence that the new variants are proving to be more dangerous for younger people than the first waves of the disease last year (in that more young people appear now to be having serious consequences from an infection).

It is not clear to me at all that there is any basis for suggesting that there may be no need to vaccinate people in the 18 - 29 age group.

[teamsaint]

its worth remembering as well that, although young people are at much less risk of hospitalisation and death from Covid, there is also the risk of additional complications from a Covid infection such as Long Covid, which are still not well understood. These longer terms effects will only become known and better understood over time, so the risk profile for younger people could well change. There is also some evidence that the new variants are proving to be more dangerous for younger people than the first waves of the disease last year (in that more young people appear now to be having serious consequences from an infection).

It is not clear to me at all that there is any basis for suggesting that there may be no need to vaccinate people in the 18 - 29 age group.

Yes, post viral complications are important to bring into the discussion. There are , at this stage lots of unknowns,( including long term effects of the vaccines) so it is a question of playing the percentages .