Coronavirus

[teamsaint]

A friend in Deal, well into his 80s is still waiting to hear of a vaccination opportunity. He had been advised that when it eventually becomes available to him, he will most likely have to get it in either Dover or Ashford, both involving significant journeys to high infection areas for him. This despite there being a suitable small hospital in Deal. Great organisation, what?

Given that there are bound to be early teething problems in distribution,in what is a huge operation from pretty much a standing start, especially to more remote areas( not Deal ! ) I wonder what reasonable minded people would consider a successful roll out ?
Would hitting the government target for first jabs by mid Feb for the top 4 groups be a success ?

[Bryn]

Given that there are bound to be early teething problems in distribution,in what is a huge operation from pretty much a standing start, especially to more remote areas( not Deal ! ) I wonder what reasonable minded people would consider a successful roll out ?
Would hitting the government target for first jabs by mid Feb for the top 4 groups be a success ?

The issue here, surely, is not so much distribution as a sensible use of local facilities. Requiring the elderly, clinically vulnerable to travel outside their immediate locality when suitable locations for vaccination are at hand is what I was centring on. Sure, Dover is both geographically and administratively close to Deal but it is also a town with a high infection level and transport congestion.

[teamsaint]

The issue here, surely, is not so much distribution as a sensible use of local facilities. Requiring the elderly, clinically vulnerable to travel outside their immediate locality when suitable locations for vaccination are at hand is what I was centring on. Sure, Dover is both geographically and administratively close to Deal but it is also a town with a high infection level and transport congestion.

Well I agree about using local facilities of course, ( a lesson in every area on the pandemic I think) but I would make an assumption that the govt has focussed on getting vaccine out to the largest number at first. If a local GP practice doesn’t want to be involved, that is a problem that might take a little time to sort out. Pharmacies will presumably take a substantial role in filling local gaps. It could be that supply of vaccine is the reason not many are currently involved ( though patient data also might be an issue ?) but you might think that the govt would have got pharmacies at least signed up and ready to go. Perhaps it has ?

[Bryn]

Well I agree about using local facilities of course, ( a lesson in every area on the pandemic I think) but I would make an assumption that the govt has focussed on getting vaccine out to the largest number at first. If a local GP practice doesn’t want to be involved, that is a problem that might take a little time to sort out. Pharmacies will presumably take a substantial role in filling local gaps. It could be that supply of vaccine is the reason not many are currently involved ( though patient data also might be an issue ?) but you might think that the govt would have got pharmacies at least signed up and ready to go. Perhaps it has ?

Good point re pharmacies. When I managed to miss my GP flu vaccination appointment, the local Tesco pharmacy sorted me on the spot. No appointment, I just enquired whether they had any vaccine in stock and was given the inoculation there and then. However, the layout there would need considerable rearrangement to handle SARS-CoV-2 vaccinations.

[Dave2002]

The way I read it was that NPIs do work, but that there is little evidence that the most harsh, stay at home orders and business closures, actually have any significant benefit in reducing cases.


While small benefits cannot be excluded, we do not find significant benefits on case growth of more restrictive NPIs. Similar reductions in case growth may be achievable with less restrictive interventions.

This does tally with , for example, the ( admittedly moderate confidence level) findings of Sage in September that for example, retail environments are low risk.

Yes - it's good to know that at least the basic NPIs do have an objectively verifiable effect.

So much is still not well known - though the most significant things seem to be to avoid mixing and close contact with others. Over the last few months we've become a lot less cautious about handling parcels and incoming mail, though there could be a slight risk from those.
We did go on one train, and in a taxi a while back, when things seemed to be easing up, but now we have no intention of using public transport. Some people have become very blasé about the disease though, which is very probably not helping (or has not helped) with the current emergence of new strains.

We haven't retreated to the ultra cautious mode we held previously, but we are reverting back to more considered ways of interacting - or not - with others. We are now avoiding going to shops completely - as we did during the first few months.

If we get a delivery of logs we'll probably leave them outside for a while before moving them - or perhaps wear gloves - practices which we had adopted much earlier on - though we've not bothered so much recently. One concern is that although we might be cautious, other people with whom we come into contact, even slightly, may not be.

There is now evidence that sometimes transmission of variants of this disease may happen with only a very short close exposure to an infected person. Low probability, but not infinitesimal risk.

[oddoneout]

Good point re pharmacies. When I managed to miss my GP flu vaccination appointment, the local Tesco pharmacy sorted me on the spot. No appointment, I just enquired whether they had any vaccine in stock and was given the inoculation there and then. However, the layout there would need considerable rearrangement to handle SARS-CoV-2 vaccinations.

This is a limiting factor for many sites I think. It isn't just the space needed for the 'in' queue, it's the space for the 15 mins adverse reactions waiting after as well. From what I have been reading GP surgeries are geared up to deliver, get appointments arranged and then are told at very short notice that they won't get the delivery they were due to get, or are left hanging with an indication they will get doses but no firm date for them to plan against. I fully appreciate that there will be some glitches in such a large undertaking, but the erratic, piecemeal and inconsistent delivery so far suggests logistics failures that just shouldn't be happening. If a depot has a certain number of doses and a list of destinations and delivery dates/times then it shouldn't be rocket science to get them delivered appropriately and as notified. I know that the Pfizer handling protocol makes for added problems, but surely that just means more care with planning and notification. I can't help thinking it sounds as if the notification of delivery to the vaccinating sites isn't linked in a functional way to the centres dealing with the storage and distribution - delivery notification to end users based on what is being expected in rather than what is actually there?

[teamsaint]

This is a limiting factor for many sites I think. It isn't just the space needed for the 'in' queue, it's the space for the 15 mins adverse reactions waiting after as well. From what I have been reading GP surgeries are geared up to deliver, get appointments arranged and then are told at very short notice that they won't get the delivery they were due to get, or are left hanging with an indication they will get doses but no firm date for them to plan against. I fully appreciate that there will be some glitches in such a large undertaking, but the erratic, piecemeal and inconsistent delivery so far suggests logistics failures that just shouldn't be happening. If a depot has a certain number of doses and a list of destinations and delivery dates/times then it shouldn't be rocket science to get them delivered appropriately and as notified. I know that the Pfizer handling protocol makes for added problems, but surely that just means more care with planning and notification. I can't help thinking it sounds as if the notification of delivery to the vaccinating sites isn't linked in a functional way to the centres dealing with the storage and distribution - delivery notification to end users based on what is being expected in rather than what is actually there?

If one is interested in that sort of thing, it is very interesting !!

MY mum had hers at a GP run centre this week. The single vaccination centre is for GP practice is based in a small town which has some outlying branches. had people travelling up to 20 miles. It was the Pfizer jab, which surprised me, as I assumed that would tend to go to bigger centres.
All seemed to be going smoothly. My guess is that they were doing 300people or so a day over three days .

[oddoneout]

If one is interested in that sort of thing, it is very interesting !!

MY mum had hers at a GP run centre this week. The single vaccination centre is for GP practice is based in a small town which has some outlying branches. had people travelling up to 20 miles. It was the Pfizer jab, which surprised me, as I assumed that would tend to go to bigger centres.
All seemed to be going smoothly. My guess is that they were doing 300people or so a day over three days .

As I understand it the Pfizer vaccine has a 5 day shelf life once unfruz so no reason why it should be limited to bigger centres if distribution etc is properly organised.

[Dave2002]

The fifteen (15) minute check for adverse effects after vaccination does seem like a sensible precaution. Mostly I hear that there are no problems, but occasionally there can be a very rapid and severe reaction, needing immediate medical attention. By rapid I mean in under 15 seconds from injection.

People who know they have allergic responses should check that they are compatible with the vaccinations they may receive.

It is not generally known whether there are other factors which would be a counter indications for vaccination, such as having alcoholic drinks before or afterwards. Clearly overall having the vaccinations is sensible, both for society as a whole, and for indivduals, but if there are any contra-indications these should be made clear before vaccination. If there are any precautions people should take before an injection, such as eating/drinking/avoiding certain foods/drinks, then it would be helpful if that informaton could be made available. If there are generally no such concerns then it would also be good to know that.

[Bryn]

Just been alerted to this via FB:

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202101/1212915.shtml

[Serial_Apologist]

Just been alerted to this via FB:

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202101/1212915.shtml

My betting is that Pfizer is the one currently being dispensed at my local, for which I am about to depart - so wish me luck!

[johnb]

Just been alerted to this via FB:

https://www.globaltimes.cn/page/202101/1212915.shtml

Without corroboration from a reputable source what is written in the Global Times has to be treated with great caution.

The Wikipedia entry for Global Times states:

The Global Times (simplified Chinese: 环球时报; traditional Chinese: 環球時報; pinyin: Huánqiú Shíbào) is a daily tabloid newspaper under the auspices of the Chinese Communist Party's People's Daily newspaper, commenting on international issues from a nationalistic perspective.[1][2][3][4] The newspaper has spread unfounded conspiracy theories and disinformation related to the COVID-19 pandemic

Always check whether the source of this type of report is reliable.

[french frank]

Without corroboration from a reputable source what is written in the Global Times has to be treated with great caution.

Always check whether the source of this type of report is reliable.

BMJ has the story, but they aren't panicking:

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n149

[LHC]

Without corroboration from a reputable source what is written in the Global Times has to be treated with great caution.

The Wikipedia entry for Global Times states:



Always check whether the source of this type of report is reliable.

There is some more reliable information here:

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n149

I am sure Chinese State media casting doubts on the Pfizer vaccine is completely unrelated to the recent disappointing results from Brazil which suggest China’s Sinovac vaccine has an efficacy of just over 50%.

[teamsaint]

BMJ has the story, but they aren't panicking:

https://www.bmj.com/content/372/bmj.n149

It does genuinely concern me that trying to get what I feel is unbiased info on vaccinations is so difficult. The industry naturally has convincing arguments , but there areas of concern.

What does the interested person make of this kind of information, for example . Clearly the authors see issues with some non- live vaccines with regard to negative non soecific effects, and especially how and in what order vaccinatios are give.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41577-020-0338-x

Heres a Ted Talk by one of the authors. Dr Benn is Professor in Global Health at the University of Southern Denmark.

https://www.ted.com/talks/christine_stabell_benn_how_vaccines_train_the_immune_system_in_ways_no_one_expected/transcript?language=en