Coronavirus

[teamsaint]

Police acting above the law (again). Not sure it'll gain coverage from the BBC, Sky et. al. for fear of being cited as a reason for more widespread non conformity of government diktats...

https://twitter.com/i/status/1347555883564339205

Oh that stuff is all staged/made up/only true in the minds of conspiracy theorists. You need to get with the program.

North Tyneside beach ( or whatever it is called) was literally packed with several dozen people yesterday.

[Frances_iom]

North Tyneside beach ( or whatever it is called) was literally packed with several dozen people yesterday.

Not everyone has a multi bedroom house plus garden in which to 'stay at home' - many will be in small multi-occupant flats with no garden - of course both for their own health + sanity and in many cases the health + safety of others need to get out - this whole stay-at-home is based entirely on middle class models.

[Bryn]

Not everyone has a multi bedroom house plus garden in which to 'stay at home' - many will be in small multi-occupant flats with no garden - of course both for their own health + sanity and in many cases the health + safety of others need to get out - this whole stay-at-home is based entirely on middle class models.

Indeed. I am all too well aware of how privileged I am to live in a single-occupancy house with ease of access to open woodland and the ability to walk miles without close encounters with others.

[Dave2002]

Not everyone has a multi bedroom house plus garden in which to 'stay at home' - many will be in small multi-occupant flats with no garden - of course both for their own health + sanity and in many cases the health + safety of others need to get out - this whole stay-at-home is based entirely on middle class models.

You are largely right, but what would you propose instead?

As with Bryn, this barely affects us. We don't need to go out, and we have fields and currently snow to walk in. We don't need to go to shops, and we have sufficient supplies to last a long while - probably a year if necessary, though that might see us using alcholic drinks for calorie intake after a while.

People who live in small flats - with even a modest number of family or friends as co-residents - may be climbing up the walls trying to get out. How would you help those people? What would you advise them to do?

[Serial_Apologist]

You are largely right, but what would you propose instead?

As with Bryn, this barely affects us. We don't need to go out, and we have fields and currently snow to walk in. We don't need to go to shops, and we have sufficient supplies to last a long while - probably a year if necessary, though that might see us using alcholic drinks for calorie intake after a while.

People who live in small flats - with even a modest number of family or friends as co-residents - may be climbing up the walls trying to get out. How would you help those people? What would you advise them to do?

How people in inescapable situations or conditions manage to adapt never ceases to amaze me. Not that this should therefore be a universal requirement: there may be more to be got(ten) out of a limited life, or even lifestyle, than the impatience born of being expected to live comparatively in a barely mitigated survivalist world constantly suggests, but at the same time it is unlikely that such thinking will be espoused when so much access is limited by inequality. The search for more in less would need to go hand in hand less in the way of class-based inequality.

[Frances_iom]

You are largely right, but what would you propose instead?
...

In short term provide individual covid spaced park benches for some to occupy - even just getting out and admiring a view lifts the spirits - but tho I can understand the police in the National parks who are scared of large crowds, but we saw last time that power goes to the head of those in charge of 'provincial' forces - it must be possible to allow for some covid safe outdoor activity especially as this current lockdown is unlikely to end before next Whitsuntide.

ETA - it appears that the two ladies who, living within the restricted area, had arranged to walk together but having brought flasks which prompted the local constabulary to issue fixed notice fines - a technique that was once the preferred way of bribing the police in the old Soviet empire and which should have no application in the UK - they have had the fine notice rescinded - no doubt the bad publicity is the only reason

[teamsaint]

You are largely right, but what would you propose instead?

As with Bryn, this barely affects us. We don't need to go out, and we have fields and currently snow to walk in. We don't need to go to shops, and we have sufficient supplies to last a long while - probably a year if necessary, though that might see us using alcholic drinks for calorie intake after a while.

People who live in small flats - with even a modest number of family or friends as co-residents - may be climbing up the walls trying to get out. How would you help those people? What would you advise them to do?

It would help if the media didn’t endlessly turn non stories into stories. Not everybody uses their common sense, but the vast majority do, and the dafter the rules, the worse the adherence will be, and the worse the long term effect on society will be. There are some very bad precedents being set.

[johnb]

Some incoherent musings about the vaccines:

I am puzzled by how the media and government seem to be saying (or at least strongly implying) that once people get vaccinated it's "off to the races" again, for them at least.

As I understand it, most people will be getting the Oxford vaccine rather than the Pfizer, which has much higher efficacy. (Knowledgeable people say you can't compare the efficacy of the two as the trials were conducted in different ways ... but they never seem to expand on that bald statement.)

The Phase 3 Trial gave an efficacy of 62% after two full doses. Since then various efficacy figures have been mooted, including an efficacy of 70% after the the first dose has taken effect. In the Phase 3 Trial none of those who received the vaccine and who were infected needed to be admitted to hospital.

So the Oxford vaccine is likely to reduce the risk of catching the virus by roughly 2/3, but it certainly doesn't eliminate the risk.

If one does catch it after receiving the Oxford vaccine the illness will be less severe - but that might mean anything from hardly noticing the effects to being very poorly. just not poorly enough to be admitted to hospital.

So, I can't see me changing my behaviour very much after receiving the Oxford vaccine,

[french frank]

As I understand it, most people will be getting the Oxford vaccine rather than the Pfizer

Where did you get that from, johnb? I had the Pfizer.

There seem to be different systems in place even here in Bristol: I got a phone call from my practice with a specific date, my brother got a letter from his, allowing him to book both online and choosing his dates (now 12 weeks after not 21 days). I was told nothing about my second.

[oddoneout]

Some incoherent musings about the vaccines:

I am puzzled by how the media and government seem to be saying (or at least strongly implying) that once people get vaccinated it's "off to the races" again, for them at least.

As I understand it, most people will be getting the Oxford vaccine rather than the Pfizer, which has much higher efficacy. (Knowledgeable people say you can't compare the efficacy of the two as the trials were conducted in different ways ... but they never seem to expand on that bald statement.)

The Phase 3 Trial gave an efficacy of 62% after two full doses. Since then various efficacy figures have been mooted, including an efficacy of 70% after the the first dose has taken effect. In the Phase 3 Trial none of those who received the vaccine and who were infected needed to be admitted to hospital.

So the Oxford vaccine is likely to reduce the risk of catching the virus by roughly 2/3, but it certainly doesn't eliminate the risk.

If one does catch it after receiving the Oxford vaccine the illness will be less severe - but that might mean anything from hardly noticing the effects to being very poorly. just not poorly enough to be admitted to hospital.

So, I can't see me changing my behaviour very much after receiving the Oxford vaccine,

Not incoherent at all John, perfectly valid observations which echo my concerns.
The belief that the vaccine is a 'get out of jail' card is a worry, and a misconception that the government appears in no hurry to dispel. I find the difference between these two on the matter telling https://www.businessinsider.com/what...0-12?r=US&IR=T (behind a privacy statement but will scroll so can be read

Can you spread COVID-19 if you have the vaccine?
The vaccine cannot give you COVID-19 infection, and a full course will reduce your chance of becoming seriously ill. We do not yet know whether it will stop you from catching and passing on the virus, but we do expect it to reduce this risk.31 Dec 2020

That quote is from gov.uk

Anecdotally - from a social Zoom meeting at which two fellow volunteers shared their disbelief and horror at hearing several elderly folk(who weren't observing social distancing/socialising rules anyway) gleefully planning a meal together as soon as they'd had their jabs - and probably meaning just the first as well. Once such an idea has taken hold it is no good giving information at a later date, it will just be ignored, as so much else covid related often is.
The term vaccinated is being used to mean those who have had just the one jab, adding to public misunderstanding in my view. It is obvious why the government would want to use it that way as it makes the figures look good (x million people have been vaccinated sounds so much better than x million people have had their first jab ie been half vaccinated) but irresponsible.
I was already concerned about this once the prospect of a vaccine became something approaching a reality, because of the way it was being touted as the solution to everything, but it is depressing in the extreme to think that once again the possibility of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory looms.

[johnb]

Where did you get that from, johnb? I had the Pfizer.

There seem to be different systems in place even here in Bristol: I got a phone call from my practice with a specific date, my brother got a letter from his, allowing him to book both online and choosing his dates (now 12 weeks after not 21 days). I was told nothing about my second.

Mea culpa. I had assumed that the Oxford vaccine would be more widely available, once the roll out was scaled up, because of the logistical problems with the Pfizer vaccine - but that assumption might be completely wrong.

Well I did say the musings were incoherent.

[french frank]

Mea culpa. I had assumed that the Oxford vaccine would be more widely available, once the roll out was scaled up, because of the logistical problems with the Pfizer vaccine - but that assumption might be completely wrong.

Well I did say the musings were incoherent.

I was a bit baffled when they said one of the "very rare" occasions when someone might get the mix of vaccines might be if "there was no record" as to which they'd had first time. How could that be? So I made sure I asked - and was given a card saying mRNA. They said they hadn't had any AstraZeneca.

[Frances_iom]

...

Well I did say the musings were incoherent.

The Oxford jab tho approved and the Boris amplification megaphone implying that they had millions of doses already cooked and ready for the off was, as per usual, somewhat sparse in its veracity - they had some pilot production that needed checking and then could be used - I suspect that is at present destined for the doctor's surgeries and for use in care homes as transport much easier. The super cool jab needs the hub centres to allow them to defrost a large pizza box and use it within a short time. Maybe the production runs of the Oxford jab are at present cooking but there is quite a delay until it is in the field.

But as you say it does not offer full immunity - covid 19 will be with us for ever more unless we can do a New Zealand and totally block entrants without quarantine and even then a case can get thru.

[Serial_Apologist]

I shall try and remember to ask which vaccine I have had injected when I go on Sunday. Even if there are some misgivings I'll just be grateful and keeping myself as much isolated as possible for the three or whatever following weeks.

[Petrushka]

I shall try and remember to ask which vaccine I have had injected when I go on Sunday. Even if there are some misgivings I'll just be grateful and keeping myself as much isolated as possible for the three or whatever following weeks.

My brother (ambulance driver) has already had his vaccination (Pfizer). There's no need to remember which particular vaccine you've had as you are given a credit card sized card to keep in your wallet which details which vaccine, date of vaccination, batch number and so on. You are also given a small badge sized sticker stating you've been vaccinated together with a comprehensive fact sheet. It all seems to be a highly professional and well run operation.