Coronavirus

[oddoneout]

I don't think this is necessarily the case .If it was, then fine, but there are plenty of strong suggestions that there are potential negatives associated with mask wearing, at least in some circumstances.

Do those potential negatives outweigh potential benefits sufficiently to justify a change of approach? Some of the negatives I've seen quoted come down to misuse and/or misunderstanding by users. Another was the concern about diversion of PPE from where it is needed to fulfill demand from non-medical sources. I would suggest that both those issues can and should be addressed rather than being used as reasons to stop use.

[Dave2002]

So, questioning whether things work or not, especially if they some possible negative impacts , and they are being made compulsory isn't a good idea ?

I can remember Professor Tan suggesting that masks were a complete red herring, and would do little to prevent transmission. However, we haven't seen him for quite a long while. I wonder why.

Also a suggestion from our London passer domesticus man - that we should be using mobile phones ....

What part of "mobile phones enable some (unknown) people to track us, and monitor what we are doing" isn't fully understood? I wasn't born with an embedded/implanted mobile phone, and I don't want to behave as though I was. There are possible threats from mobile phones which many people do not understand, and I don't mean the radiation.

[teamsaint]

Do those potential negatives outweigh potential benefits sufficiently to justify a change of approach? Some of the negatives I've seen quoted come down to misuse and/or misunderstanding by users. Another was the concern about diversion of PPE from where it is needed to fulfill demand from non-medical sources. I would suggest that both those issues can and should be addressed rather than being used as reasons to stop use.

Well these are the kind of questions, and they were questions, that I was seeking to address.
It would be a shame if a wider discussion about how this pandemic is being dealt with ( by the government, but also with the agreement of others) ) is sidelined into a pro or anti mask debate, which can in any case be a more nuanced discussion, in the same way that just ranting about the government's many failings isn't necessarily the best use of time or energy.

[Pulcinella]

Italy has just made wearing face masks compulsory in outdoor spaces.

"Italy has brought in nationwide restrictions tightening the use of face masks. They are compulsory in all but a few situations, both indoors and outdoors."

(BBC Online News, today)

[oddoneout]

Some have good reasons not to wear a mask. Others have principled objections or seriously question as to wearing a mask - and they may, or may not, wear them.

Aside from the above, wearing a mask could serve as a constant reminder we still need to be cautious, and keep distance etc etc - - I think it does with me. I suspect the people who will get false re-assurance are those who anyway would not be observant and come close, fail to avoid etc anyway.

In the UK we are more indvidualist and "freedom loving" than some societies such as Korea, maybe Scandinavia where there is an approach of acting together for the common good to a greater extent than here. Another way of putting it is that - I suspect - we are more tolerant of hedonistic and selfish behaviours generally - to the point of indulgence - and have a higher incidence of it .

For the UK then it appears there isn't any one approach which will press down on the virus hard - only a variety of measures which will hold back the transmission, the damage and the damaging effects. Maybe there will be "evidence" to disprove the worth of wearing masks** but for many its a small matter to comply in the hope it is indeed helping - like it seems to help in the far east.
**Then surgeons in operating theatres won't need to wear them, will they?


Believe me I am no admirer of this government. They should be doing better - much better. To avoid a national harsh restriction we need more local and variable restrictions. That's it. But the argument of "its so complicated I don't understand it" really doesn't wash for those amongst us who can read and use their mobile smart phone - they need to make the effort.

I think the likes of orthopaedic surgeons might still use masks even without considerations of infection...
Regarding your last paragraph I think a lot of the problem is more to do with confusion about the mixed and contradictory messages, and how the rules apply to individual cases - especially when they change so frequently. I have tried on occasion to get facts about a specific issue via the 'official' sites and ended up defeated sometimes by the sheer volume of verbiage and pages to plough through, at the end of which I still don't seem to have a definitive answer. What the media choose to present doesn't always give as unified a picture as one would wish,so within any given group(family, friends, casual encounters when shopping) there may well be quite different interpretations of 'the rules'. I can quite understand those who say 'it's too complicated', especially where they are also trying to deal with the everyday and shifting concerns about jobs(or lack of), schools, finances, housing etc. and who consequently choose not to engage.

[Cockney Sparrow]

But he's talking about wearing masks, where surely Pascal's wager comes into play: if they work, great; if they don't, nothing is lost. And there's another effect which tends not to be mentioned: going around and seeing people wearing face masks tends to reinforce the feeling that one ought to take the situation seriously and be vigilant in other ways.

I very much agree (my bold above). On about the 13 July I remember stopping at Scotch Corner services and I was one of only 2 or 3 people wearing a face mask in the building. People looked at me mostly as though I was an idiot - a few others seemed shocked that I was taking the situation that seriously........

(From).... my vantage point it seems that all these arguments in the UK swirling around about what to do and what not to do are principally the result of the government's half-arsed and self-contradictory policies in this area, or excuses for policies: of course a right-wing government is going to attempt to take advantage of the situation by using it as cover for a power grab, just like they do with everything else. If they weren't using the pandemic as a means of consolidating power and control they'd be using something else, and people don't trust them. What they should be doing......

Andy Burnham, Mayor of Manchester has had enough of this government. (World at One, about 1.25pm today). He describes a meeting on Monday with the Health Secretary and his officials about what restrictions to bring in, the need for local liaison and the need to organise and inform about financial support for the vulnerable pub/restaurant sector if temporary closures are needed. Only to find that new measures are being imposed with no discussion. In his words, the feeling all over Northern England is that the government has "lost the dressing room".

[oddoneout]

I can remember Professor Tan suggesting that masks were a complete red herring, and would do little to preent transmission. However, we haven't seen him for quite a long while. I wonder why.

Also a suggestion from our London passer domesticus man - that we should be using mobile phones ....

What part of "mobile phones enable some (unknown) people to track us, and monitor what we are doing" isn't fully understood? I wasn't born with an embedded/implanted mobile phone, and I don't want to behave as though I was. There are possible threats from mobile phones which may people do not understand, and I don't mean the radiation.

Which reminds me, and at the risk of going temporarily off topic. At what level of functionality, for want of a better term, does a mobile phone become a tracking device? I can make and receive calls and texts on my phone and text messages can be left on it when it's switched off(which is at least 90% of the time). It has no connectivity beyond that, so no chance of Serco T&T etc, but what level of monitoring of my location and movements would be possible?

[Bryn]

Which reminds me, and at the risk of going temporarily off topic. At what level of functionality, for want of a better term, does a mobile phone become a tracking device? I can make and receive calls and texts on my phone and text messages can be left on it when it's switched off(which is at least 90% of the time). It has no connectivity beyond that, so no chance of Serco T&T etc, but what level of monitoring of my location and movements would be possible?

https://www.quora.com/Is-it-true-that-the-location-of-turned-off-mobile-phones-can-still-be-tracked-if-the-battery-is-installed

Don't stop at the first reply. The integral battery is pretty much the key.

If you want a phone with a removable battery, here's a useful site: https://www.productchart.co.uk/smartphones/sets/3

[Frances_iom]

At what level of functionality, for want of a better term, does a mobile phone become a tracking device? ?

The tracking is inherent as it needs to talk to a base station - to determine which base station it monitors the received strength of all it can receive and chooses the best to originate a call - by giving that base station the data of the received strengths of other base stations then by this + possibly timing offsets your position is triangualated - if the base stations are only a short distance apart as in cities etc then your position is known to within a few yards - if the phone includes a GPS receiver as all 'smart' phones do then this info can also be passed on - you may think you are turning off a smart phone but all you are doing is placing it into a semi awake mode in which some functions still continue and from which it may be woken by received signals (this trick was used by certain Govt forces to track you) - you need to remove the battery but this is usually impossible in a smart phone and even if doable would require some time for the smart phone to regain a working state - simple phones may however be switched off and not communicate with any base station

[Serial_Apologist]

....or even the risen Christ? 'An Act of God'?


Crikey.

An act of Gad. Trump is a gadfly, after all...

[oddoneout]

The tracking is inherent as it needs to talk to a base station - to determine which base station it monitors the received strength of all it can receive and chooses the best to originate a call - by giving that base station the data of the received strengths of other base stations then by this + possibly timing offsets your position is triangualated - if the base stations are only a short distance apart as in cities etc then your position is known to within a few yards - if the phone includes a GPS receiver as all 'smart' phones do then this info can also be passed on - you may think you are turning off a smart phone but all you are doing is placing it into a semi awake mode in which some functions still continue and from which it may be woken by received signals (this trick was used by certain Govt forces to track you) - you need to remove the battery but this is usually impossible in a smart phone and even if doable would require some time for the smart phone to regain a working state - simple phones may however be switched off and not communicate with any base station

So it'll only be the base station factor then, which is what I thought. It's an old(in today's terms, about 7 years now I think)dumb phone - so no camera, no touch screen,no internet etc - and when it's switched off it is pretty well off, it doesn't have a sleep mode or equivalent, the only thing that still seems to continue to happen is receiving text messages - but I won't know about them until I next turn it on.

[Serial_Apologist]

Well these are the kind of questions, and they were questions, that I was seeking to address.
It would be a shame if a wider discussion about how this pandemic is being dealt with ( by the government, but also with the agreement of others) ) is sidelined into a pro or anti mask debate, which can in any case be a more nuanced discussion, in the same way that just ranting about the government's many failings isn't necessarily the best use of time or energy.

As far as I understand, most of the objections that have been given to wearing face masks have been "subjective" ones, i.e in the case of claustrophobics, although both they and for example COPD sufferers should be exempted and carry permits sanctioned by GP. The only clear objective pretext I can think of as not applying to the above was the argument one sometimes heard that wearing a mask forced the wearer to breathe in their own germs!

[Serial_Apologist]

So it'll only be the base station factor then, which is what I thought. It's an old(in today's terms, about 7 years now I think)dumb phone - so no camera, no touch screen,no internet etc - and when it's switched off it is pretty well off, it doesn't have a sleep mode or equivalent, the only thing that still seems to continue to happen is receiving text messages - but I won't know about them until I next turn it on.

If only mobile phones needed to be that simple! I now have a smartphone, which I have still not managed to master, on the basis that I was repeatedly being told that I will soon, if not already, need such a device in order to communicate anything of vital importance with anybody, eg bank, council, police, insurance, bill payments...

[Flay]

One of my brothers lives in Hong Kong. It has kept a tight lid on Covid primarily because they all wear masks. Social distancing is rarely an option with such a population density. When they recently returned there after dropping their daughters off at university in Leeds and Manchester (!) they had to quarantine in their flat for 2 weeks, not being allowed out at all. They had to wear wrist tags which confirmed their location, and were contacted from time to time by the authorities to show video evidence that the tags were still being worn. Draconian - yes, but it's working. Rampant Covid in HK would be unthinkable.

[Richard Barrett]

One of my brothers lives in Hong Kong. It has kept a tight lid on Covid primarily because they all wear masks.

As I expect you'll be aware, wearing facemasks against infection and/or pollution wasn't uncommon in the Far East even before all this happened, so they had a head start so to speak.