Coronavirus

[muzzer]

I don't disagree with much of what you say, but plenty of other governments have done more or less as badly as ours. Cases are just as high in Spain and France, just as two examples.
We really need to be asking very serious questions about the policies being pursued, how and if they are working, what alternatives there might be, and whether we should really assume that the government's intentions are benign. If we don't ask those questions, then we are very foolish, but sadly large chunks of the media are complicit in the chaos, in a variety of ways.

Some questions :

Why aren't local lockdowns apparently working ? Badly implemented, or just a bad policy ?
Are masks really keeping infection down, ( check the numbers and the regulations in France) or are they possibly instilling a false sense of security ?
Are testing and tracing resources being properly targeted ? Should there be more focus on workplace and education establishments ?
Just how trustworthy are the test results ?
Can we do more to support self isolation and shielding, in what might be a cost effective move of resources away from general controls.
Is there too much focus on general restriction of activity, and too little on preventing really risky activity or behaviour ?
is the government really balancing the risks of Covid and non covid health issues properly ?

And so on, and so on?

As I say, just questions .

Yes I agree with all of that. We’re 100 years plus on from the TB that wiped out half of my family as it did many, with all the benefits of science that century has brought, and yet it has not been used this year apolitically to beat the virus. It’s hard to avoid the conclusion there are reasons for that. The gulf between the individual and society has never been greater imho. Are any of us here experts on the science? And yet we all believe we know best. As you say, keeping your distance appears to be a good idea, and masks may give a false sense of security. Surely a combination of common sense and rigorous track and trace would have borne results by now? I’m looking forward to my flu jab.

[Anastasius]

....Surely a combination of common sense and rigorous track and trace would have borne results by now? ....

Yes, they would have. But sadly there is a paucity of both.

[LMcD]

It was bad enough with Johnson thinking he's Churchill, but now it appears that Trump thinks he's David Icke.

[teamsaint]

Just to add something to my post 3970, another issue that needs seriously addressing, and to be kept absolutely cental is how government policy is impacting our freedoms. And this issue needs to be grasped by the liberal left, and not allowed to become the rallying point for those who may not have our best interests at heart , on other parts of the political spectrum.
Authoritarian tendencies are not exclusive to the political right, and freedoms once lost will be very hard to win back. “ Solutions” for covid that involve risk to freedoms, need to be thought through very carefully, and mitigated as far as possible. I suspect that we are already well down the road to a much more controlled society, ( and that probably applies internationally as well) and fear will be our enemy if we don’t want much deeper control implemented on the nod. All of our poiticians, not just the government, need to be held to account on this. Unfortunately, the media don’t seem that bothered.

[oddoneout]

Just to add something to my post 3970, another issue that needs seriously addressing, and to be kept absolutely cental is how government policy is impacting our freedoms. And this issue needs to be grasped by the liberal left, and not allowed to become the rallying point for those who may not have our best interests at heart , on other parts of the political spectrum.
Authoritarian tendencies are not exclusive to the political right, and freedoms once lost will be very hard to win back. “ Solutions” for covid that involve risk to freedoms, need to be thought through very carefully, and mitigated as far as possible. I suspect that we are already well down the road to a much more controlled society, ( and that probably applies internationally as well) and fear will be our enemy if we don’t want much deeper control implemented on the nod. All of our poiticians, not just the government, need to be held to account on this. Unfortunately, the media don’t seem that bothered.

Not surprising given where the allegiances (aka money?) lie in too many cases?
This is relevant

https://www.theguardian.com/law/2020/oct/07/brexit-strategy-puts-uk-on-slippery-slope-to-tyranny-lawyers-told

[johncorrigan]

It was bad enough with Johnson thinking he's Churchill, but now it appears that Trump thinks he's David Icke.

[DracoM]

....or even the risen Christ? 'An Act of God'?


Crikey.

[Cockney Sparrow]

masks may give a false sense of security....

Some have good reasons not to wear a mask. Others have principled objections or seriously question as to wearing a mask - and they may, or may not, wear them.

Aside from the above, wearing a mask could serve as a constant reminder we still need to be cautious, and keep distance etc etc - - I think it does with me. I suspect the people who will get false re-assurance are those who anyway would not be observant and come close, fail to avoid etc anyway.

In the UK we are more indvidualist and "freedom loving" than some societies such as Korea, maybe Scandinavia where there is an approach of acting together for the common good to a greater extent than here. Another way of putting it is that - I suspect - we are more tolerant of hedonistic and selfish behaviours generally - to the point of indulgence - and have a higher incidence of it .

For the UK then it appears there isn't any one approach which will press down on the virus hard - only a variety of measures which will hold back the transmission, the damage and the damaging effects. Maybe there will be "evidence" to disprove the worth of wearing masks** but for many its a small matter to comply in the hope it is indeed helping - like it seems to help in the far east.
**Then surgeons in operating theatres won't need to wear them, will they?


Believe me I am no admirer of this government. They should be doing better - much better. To avoid a national harsh restriction we need more local and variable restrictions. That's it. But the argument of "its so complicated I don't understand it" really doesn't wash for those amongst us who can read and use their mobile smart phone - they need to make the effort.

[Anastasius]

..... But the argument of "its so complicated I don't understand it" really doesn't wash for those amongst us who can read and use their mobile smart phone - they need to make the effort.....

Very true and not helped by some constantly belly-aching about 'liberty' and 'freedom' and questioning if they work or not. Just wear the damn things.

[teamsaint]

Very true and not helped by some constantly belly-aching about 'liberty' and 'freedom' and questioning if they work or not. Just wear the damn things.

So, questioning whether things work or not, especially if they some possible negative impacts , and they are being made compulsory isn't a good idea ?

Blimey.

[Richard Barrett]

So, questioning whether things work or not, especially if they some possible negative impacts , and they are being made compulsory isn't a good idea ?

But he's talking about wearing masks, where surely Pascal's wager comes into play: if they work, great; if they don't, nothing is lost. And there's another effect which tends not to be mentioned: going around and seeing people wearing face masks tends to reinforce the feeling that one ought to take the situation seriously and be vigilant in other ways. For my vantage point it seems that all these arguments in the UK swirling around about what to do and what not to do are principally the result of the government's half-arsed and self-contradictory policies in this area, or excuses for policies: of course a right-wing government is going to attempt to take advantage of the situation by using it as cover for a power grab, just like they do with everything else. If they weren't using the pandemic as a means of consolidating power and control they'd be using something else, and people don't trust them. What they should be doing (what everyone should be doing) is looking around to see where the response has been most successful and why, and learning from such examples about how to do things, which the Johnson gang has catastrophically failed to do. But that's not a reason not to wear the face covering, is it?

[teamsaint]

But he's talking about wearing masks, where surely Pascal's wager comes into play: if they work, great; if they don't, nothing is lost. And there's another effect which tends not to be mentioned: going around and seeing people wearing face masks tends to reinforce the feeling that one ought to take the situation seriously and be vigilant in other ways. For my vantage point it seems that all these arguments in the UK swirling around about what to do and what not to do are principally the result of the government's half-arsed and self-contradictory policies in this area, or excuses for policies: of course a right-wing government is going to attempt to take advantage of the situation by using it as cover for a power grab, just like they do with everything else. If they weren't using the pandemic as a means of consolidating power and control they'd be using something else, and people don't trust them. What they should be doing (what everyone should be doing) is looking around to see where the response has been most successful and why, and learning from such examples about how to do things, which the Johnson gang has catastrophically failed to do. But that's not a reason not to wear the face covering, is it?

I don't think this is necessarily the case .If it was, then fine, but there are plenty of strong suggestions that there are potential negatives associated with mask wearing, at least in some circumstances.

[Anastasius]

So, questioning whether things work or not, especially if they some possible negative impacts , and they are being made compulsory isn't a good idea ?

Blimey.

I suggest that you are lacking a sense of proportion here. The more people like you go on about "possible negative impacts" is not helpful in the slightest. What "possible negative impacts" ? A sense of complacency ? Fine...well deal with that then. Just don't throw the baby out with thebathwater. Seems to me that you think that you know best. "I'll not give my QR" "I'll not do this " "I'll decide what's best for me". Why not think of the consequences of such selfish actions on others ?

[Anastasius]

But he's talking about wearing masks, where surely Pascal's wager comes into play: if they work, great; if they don't, nothing is lost. And there's another effect which tends not to be mentioned: going around and seeing people wearing face masks tends to reinforce the feeling that one ought to take the situation seriously and be vigilant in other ways. For my vantage point it seems that all these arguments in the UK swirling around about what to do and what not to do are principally the result of the government's half-arsed and self-contradictory policies in this area, or excuses for policies: of course a right-wing government is going to attempt to take advantage of the situation by using it as cover for a power grab, just like they do with everything else. If they weren't using the pandemic as a means of consolidating power and control they'd be using something else, and people don't trust them. What they should be doing (what everyone should be doing) is looking around to see where the response has been most successful and why, and learning from such examples about how to do things, which the Johnson gang has catastrophically failed to do. But that's not a reason not to wear the face covering, is it?

Well put, Richard.

[teamsaint]

I suggest that you are lacking a sense of proportion here. The more people like you go on about "possible negative impacts" is not helpful in the slightest. What "possible negative impacts" ? A sense of complacency ? Fine...well deal with that then. Just don't throw the baby out with thebathwater. Seems to me that you think that you know best. "I'll not give my QR" "I'll not do this " "I'll decide what's best for me". Why not think of the consequences of such selfish actions on others ?

I can't be bothered , I really can't.

My only suggestion is that you actually read my posts properly , if you want to respond. And stop the personal comments.