Coronavirus

[Dave2002]

Yes, I feel we're implicitly being urged to go out and spend, spend, spend to get the economy going again.

I'm not sure that it's just "implicit" - a bit more than that.

[MrGongGong]

Yes, I feel we're implicitly being urged to go out and spend, spend, spend to get the economy going again.

I think what is vital is that people support those businesses that are local and independent
otherwise, the only "choice" we will have is Walmart, Tesco and Wetherspoons ... the sooner we get the latter to go bust the better IMV

[burning dog]

I think what is vital is that people support those businesses that are local and independent
otherwise, the only "choice" we will have is Walmart, Tesco and Wetherspoons ... the sooner we get the latter to go bust the better IMV

[Count Boso]

I'm not sure that it's just "implicit" - a bit more than that.

We'd been told that Primark had already got its new spring and summer stuff in. So what will happen to the spring clothes now? Calamity, they will be out of fashion by next year. They'll have to be given away to the Salvation Army and charity shops.

Mr G - I think the small independents are local services and should be supported on that basis.

[teamsaint]

Yes, I feel we're implicitly being urged to go out and spend, spend, spend to get the economy going again.

Yes we are. And in the absence of a better, fairer, greener economic model, that is important. Our fellow citizens ( and especially hard pressed milennials)need their businesses to thrive, they need their jobs, and the country needs their tax payments. Money is pretty useless really, unless it is circulating. I don’t know about others,but I have saved quite a bit of money during lockdown,despite being on 80% salary much of the time, and I cdrtainly intend to spend it on goods and especially services that I need. And as soon as possible. And in most situations I think it is probably very safe to visit the shops right now, especially if using orivate transport to get there.

I broadly agree with GGs point about the big corporate chains.

[MrGongGong]

This is an opportunity to shape what our communities will be like
BUT, sadly, I think it will be one that is missed

[Dave2002]

Yes we are. And in the absence of a better, fairer, greener economic model, that is important. Our fellow citizens ( and especially hard pressed milennials)need their businesses to thrive, they need their jobs, and the country needs their tax payments. Money is pretty useless really, unless it is circulating. I don’t know about others, but I have saved quite a bit of money during lockdown,despite being on 80% salary much of the time, and I cdrtainly intend to spend it on goods and especially services that I need. And as soon as possible. And in most situations I think it is probably very safe to visit the shops right now, especially if using orivate transport to get there.

I broadly agree with GGs point about the big corporate chains.

Like most things in life, some balance is needed. A world in which everyone has to consume like mad so as to "support" some producer somewhere in the world, yet perhaps needlessly use up resources, is not a good thing. Maybe there's no real alternative, but do we in the so-called western civilised societies really have to buy up loads of clothes and goods we don't really want or need, to "support" poorer people in disadvantaged parts of the world? Also transport of such products requires energy and infrastructure.

I'm not against reasonable levels of activity, but who defines what "reasonable" is? Things don't have to be maxed out with consequential damage to the environment, and a lot of the problems may arise from unfair distribution of "wealth". Many people are working long hours because they "have to", and while in some societies long and hard work may be necessary because of their local environment, in some societies it's our social structures which "force" people to do this.

[teamsaint]

This is an opportunity to shape what our communities will be like
BUT, sadly, I think it will be one that is missed

I think there will be at least some incremental change. It was noticeable after the financial crash that shopping for food moved towards smaller high street outlets. Some change have already happened. Significantly more people are interested are more interested in growing their own fruit and veg, for example. Hopefully, deeper structural change will happen, but those with the big financial power will be hard to displace.
At a business level, we have just (in the last week ) moved away from directing buyers on our website to Amazon, and they are now offered the option of either Waterstones or Hive, which is independently owned, and gives, a cut of each sale to the local independent bookshop. It has cost us much needed cash to do this, but we felt it was an investment worth making to give our customers a better choice of buying options.

[MrGongGong]

I think there will be at least some incremental change. It was noticeable after the financial crash that shopping for food moved towards smaller high street outlets. Some change have already happened. Significantly more people are interested are more interested in growing their own fruit and veg, for example. Hopefully, deeper structural change will happen, but those with the big financial power will be hard to displace.
At a business level, we have just (in the last week ) moved away from directing buyers on our website to Amazon, and they are now offered the option of either Waterstones or Hive, which is independently owned, and gives, a cut of each sale to the local independent bookshop. It has cost us much needed cash to do this, but we felt it was an investment worth making to give our customers a better choice of buying options.

I hope there will be change
but when the likes of "Spoons" are able to almost give away beer there's not much room for others

At least if I go to my local Lincolnshire (different to the others ...but that's another story) Co-op they sell local beer, cheese and other things......but that means paying more and most people won't do that.

[Dave2002]

Significantly more people are interested are more interested in growing their own fruit and veg, for example.

Easier said than done, in some areas, I think. So far in the last few months we've had a few salad leaves - and I really mean a few, and I pulled a radish out of a pot yesterday. However, the weeds grow very vigorously.

I have watched in amazement as one of the neighbours worked on several strips of garden a few weeks ago, and there are now clearly significant crops coming up. I think she runs a B&B, and uses those plots to provide food for herself and the guests.

Besides the difficulty of getting seeds to germinate and grow, even in these parts there are pests such as slugs which can eat up anything good to eat within microseconds, and now we've also discovered that putting pots high up doesn't deter some - maybe flies or birds, so leaves may still end up with a lot of holes. Our best bet at the moment is raspberries - if we get the netting over them in time before the birds attack.

Re supporting local growers, yes - I agree with that. Unfortunately one significant local grower either has given up, or will give up, because of Brexit, and lack of workers to come and pick the crops. Whether there'll be a rethink about whether to give up that businss or not because of the virus problem is uncertain, but clearly UK workers are not prepared to work for the low level of wages which would be available, and now the foreign workers may not be allowed in because of the virus issues.

I think the "Good Life" approach is a lot harder than many imagine.

[Cockney Sparrow]

Deleted post

[teamsaint]

Re supporting local growers, yes - I agree with that. Unfortunately one significant local grower either has given up, or will give up, because of Brexit, and lack of workers to come and pick the crops. Whether there'll be a rethink about whether to give up that businss or not because of the virus problem is uncertain, but clearly UK workers are not prepared to work for the low level of wages which would be available, and now the foreign workers may not be allowed in because of the virus issues.

I think the "Good Life" approach is a lot harder than many imagine.

The thing about grwing your own fruit and veg is much more about a direction of travel, rather than actually it providing a substantial food source. The more people do this sort of thing, the more they will appreciate locally produced or organic food, I think.

The business of British workers not being prepared to work for low wages in agriculture has been shown comprehensively to be a structural issue. Many , many people work for poor wages , often in lousy conditions in the UK. The major problem with agriculture is around access to the sites, along with the high cost of living and travel and accomodation costs in temporarily moving to the areas that need the workforce.

[Cockney Sparrow]

Very interesting, indeed. Thanks.

This seems quite while ago - as to the oxygen side. If any of my family become unwell, then monitoring for low oxygen could result in medical admission rather than letting the virus infection build to a critical level. The medics and researchers are (obvious point) finding out more all the time** about the virus and supporting the infected :

To remark on another aspect of Covid 19, which may be of interest - certainly I found it of (self) interest…. Listening to PM on Wednesday 22 April (at 1hr 17mins, 50 seconds ) Evan Davies interviewed Dr Richard Levitan (described as a professor of Emergency Medicine) who served for 10 days at a New York Hospital at the height of the epidemic.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m000hfrz

He describes how patients not complaining of respiratory distress (and no obvious Covid 19 symptoms) but attending for other reasons (e.g. stab wound) were found to have low levels of oxygen and on investigation, to have a developed Covid 19 infection. He suggests that the very sudden onset of distress can occur late(r) in the stage of infection, and by then the chance of a successful recovery are much slimmer - hence the modest success of patients after being ventilated. And earlier admission and oxygen provision would avert the onset of the critical phase for many patients.

He therefore suggest it would be a good idea for people in the community to buy a Pulse Oximeter - searching on the usual sites will bring up plenty of models. No doubt the Prime Minister's oxygen levels were monitored by his doctor, and as we know he wasn't intubated…….
I had no trouble accessing on my web browser* the NY times article written by Dr Levitan "The Infection That’s Silently Killing Coronavirus Patients"

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/20/opinion/coronavirus-testing-pneumonia.html?searchResultPosition=1

* If any reader has trouble, I can point you to another source of the text - PM me.

Dave you posted that link to the Guardian Article - thanks, a useful overview of "where we are now" with the Covid 19:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/07/after-six-months-of-coronavirus-how-close-are-we-to-defeating-it?utm_source=pocket-newtab-global-en-GB

[Dave2002]

I hope there will be change
but when the likes of "Spoons" are able to almost give away beer there's not much room for others

At least if I go to my local Lincolnshire (different to the others ...but that's another story) Co-op they sell local beer, cheese and other things......but that means paying more and most people won't do that.

We shouldn't always knock big businesses, or just be biased significantly against ones we don't like. Programmes such as Inside The Factory show just how significant some large businesses can be.
Providing food on the scale of some of these plants and distribution chains would be very hard without big business.

Regarding beers, probably some smaller breweries do have better products, but that isn't always a given. Small scale production results in other behaviours. It's possible that large scale demand only works if people are prepared to accept what may be inferior products, and of course advertising and other marketing ploys work to assure them that they are not doing that!

[Count Boso]

Yes we are. And in the absence of a better, fairer, greener economic model, that is important. Our fellow citizens ( and especially hard pressed milennials)need their businesses to thrive, they need their jobs, and the country needs their tax payments. Money is pretty useless really, unless it is circulating. I don’t know about others,but I have saved quite a bit of money during lockdown,despite being on 80% salary much of the time, and I cdrtainly intend to spend it on goods and especially services that I need. And as soon as possible. And in most situations I think it is probably very safe to visit the shops right now, especially if using orivate transport to get there.

I broadly agree with GGs point about the big corporate chains.

I don't criticise that, at all, but spend for those who haven't managed to save, who are worse off than before, who don't have access to private transport and who still are being told to "stay home" because 83% of deaths come from their age group.