Coronavirus

[teamsaint]

I'm assuming you appreciate the difference between gross debt and insolvency?

Hertz is a massive multinational corporation. Most corporations of this size have huge amounts of debt in their capital structure. It's important to note that as at 31 December 2019 Hertz had net assets of $1.9bn. In other words it had gross assets of $24.6bn as against gross liabilities of $22.7bn (including $18.9bn of debt).

The media are fond of wheeling out this debt figure whenever they want to imply that a company is massively overtrading or in imminent danger of financial collapse. To put the Hertz figures in context, it had $15bn of debt at the end of 2017 and $16bn at the end of 2018. In fact, between 2015 and 2019 its net assets increased from $1bn to $1.9bn, or to put it in layman's terms it made $900m of retained profits during that four year period. It is not unusual for corporations to use debt to finance future capital growth, while still being able to give shareholders a return.

Clearly, the group is now in serious difficulties, but without Covid-19 there is little to indicate that it would not still be trading profitably.

I’m not an accountant, so don’t understand the nuances. However, the fact that a company turning over £10 bn PA has had to file for bankruptcy protection after a 10 week hit to its turnover doesn’t say an awful lot for its resilience, or the way that its debt is structured ,I would suggest ?

( I may be misreading your comments, but it seems that you are saying that they made $900m of retained profits over those four years, whilst increasing debt by $1bn in just one of those four years. So if the $ 1 bn was to fund future capital growth, what does that actually mean, in laymans language ?)

[oddoneout]

What do you mean by 'oiks'?

Those people who do the work and generate the money to make the (Tory) world go round but for whom they have no regard or concern. Should have edited my post really, posted too quickly after reading some news items which had 'annoyed' me...

[johnb]

On 21st May the BBC reported that an extensive hydroxychloroquine trial had begun in the UK and elsewhere.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-52737169

Chloroquine, hydroxychloroquine or a placebo will be given to more than 40,000 healthcare workers from Europe, Africa, Asia and South America.
.....
The first UK participants in the global trial are being enrolled on Thursday at the Brighton and Sussex University Hospitals and the John Radcliffe Hospital in Oxford.

They will be given either hydroxychloroquine or a placebo for three months. At sites in Asia, participants will be given chloroquine or a placebo.

These are the first of a planned 25 UK sites, with results expected by the end of the year.

The following day a paper on an observational study of 96,000 patients who had been treated with hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine was published in The Lancet. It concluded:

We were unable to confirm a benefit of hydroxychloroquine or chloroquine, when used alone or with a macrolide, on in-hospital outcomes for COVID-19. Each of these drug regimens was associated with decreased in-hospital survival and an increased frequency of ventricular arrhythmias when used for treatment of COVID-19.

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(20)31180-6/fulltext

Scientific reaction to the paper: https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/e...d-19-patients/

The new study is of healthy individuals to see if the drugs protect them against CV-19 whereas the other (observational) study was about when the drugs were given to patients who already had CV-19. Nevertheless I'm pretty sure I wouldn't want to participate in the new study.

[MrGongGong]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NrqJ9GaFuZE

For some reason, this is today's earworm ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gmzU7GsH_CU&frags=pl%2Cwn

[Serial_Apologist]

I’m not an accountant, so don’t understand the nuances. However, the fact that a company turning over £10 bn PA has had to file for bankruptcy protection after a 10 week hit to its turnover doesn’t say an awful lot for its resilience, or the way that its debt is structured ,I would suggest ?

( I may be misreading your comments, but it seems that you are saying that they made $900m of retained profits over those four years, whilst increasing debt by $1bn in just one of those four years. So if the $ 1 bn was to fund future capital growth, what does that actually mean, in laymans language ?)

Nevertheless one gets a clear idea of the huge piles of capital that have to be stored up to sustain huge multinationals such as Herz - it is from those that on the one hand inordinately disproportionate salaries are paid to the top ceo's, but on the other taxes are drawn to be for the welfare state including the NHS - the only alternative to those taxable profits being borrowing from the banks and on the international money markets. This can only hold out for as long as interest rates remain low; and we know that low interest rates are there to "incentivise" businesses investing in times of recession, which for some time now has been the "new normal", (and governments when they apply Keynsian measures to mitigate the worst effects of recessions, which result from the anarchic basis on which capitalism descides what gets produced and where, and who benefits the most and least) We may not like these truths but for as long as we live under capitalism, accumulating such huge reserves will continue to determine how much can be "afforded", with banks and lenders holding the punitive whip hand, from infrastructural problems to prop it all up to pensions.

From any rational vantage point, capitalism is not sustainable.

[LezLee]

Those people who do the work and generate the money to make the (Tory) world go round but for whom they have no regard or concern. Should have edited my post really, posted too quickly after reading some news items which had 'annoyed' me...

I've always thought of it as derogatory which I don't think is what you meant.

"If you refer to someone as an oik, you think that they behave in a rude or unacceptable way, especially in a way that you believe to be typical of a low social class." Collins English Dict.

[oddoneout]

I am somewhat puzzled by these drug trials - some seem to be for treatment of existing Covid-19 patients(for which the evidence doesn't seem encouraging, as per The Lancet article) and others are as a preventative. In terms of the preventative trials how does taking a drug which suppresses the body's immune response(which is why it's used in the treatment of Rheumatoid arthritis for instance) help; is there something about the way it works as an anti malarial which suggests it could be useful as an anti-Covid? There is also quite a long lead time before it becomes effective when used for RA, does it work quicker as an antimalarial and therefore possibly also against Covid-19. If not then there is presumably a significant period when those taking it are not protected.

[oddoneout]

I've always thought of it as derogatory which I don't think is what you meant.

"If you refer to someone as an oik, you think that they behave in a rude or unacceptable way, especially in a way that you believe to be typical of a low social class." Collins English Dict.

Yes, which is why I should have delayed, as although I was meaning the way the Tory Party/Government seem to regard significant parts of the population, that wasn't clear in my post. Reading the news stories is not good for my state of mind or clarity of thought! I am trying to cut down...

[Count Boso]

https://www.thelancet.com/journals/l...180-6/fulltext

Scientific reaction to the paper: https://www.sciencemediacentre.org/e...d-19-patients/

"Furthermore, it is clear that high profile endorsements of taking these drugs without clinical oversight is both misguided and irresponsible.”

(I wonder what/who they can be getting at here? )

[LHC]

I am somewhat puzzled by these drug trials - some seem to be for treatment of existing Covid-19 patients(for which the evidence doesn't seem encouraging, as per The Lancet article) and others are as a preventative. In terms of the preventative trials how does taking a drug which suppresses the body's immune response(which is why it's used in the treatment of Rheumatoid arthritis for instance) help; is there something about the way it works as an anti malarial which suggests it could be useful as an anti-Covid? There is also quite a long lead time before it becomes effective when used for RA, does it work quicker as an antimalarial and therefore possibly also against Covid-19. If not then there is presumably a significant period when those taking it are not protected.

The Lancet paper notes that these drugs have “been shown in laboratory conditions to have antiviral properties”, which is presumably why it is thought they might have some benefit in preventing Covid19 from taking hold. Having said that, the Lancet study suggests they do more harm than good for Covid19 patients. I understand a Swedish study was also halted soon after it started as it became clear more patients were dying with the treatment.

[Bryn]

The Lancet paper notes that these drugs have “been shown in laboratory conditions to have antiviral properties”, which is presumably why it is thought they might have some benefit in preventing Covid19 from taking hold. Having said that, the Lancet study suggests they do more harm than good for Covid19 patients. I understand a Swedish study was also halted soon after it started as it became clear more patients were dying with the treatment.

My understanding was that many of the deaths are not through the direct action of the coronavirus but from catastrophic overactivity from the immune system.

[Serial_Apologist]

My understanding was that many of the deaths are not through the direct action of the coronavirus but from catastrophic overactivity from the immune system.

The desired objective, then, being to reduce the overactive immune system reaction with suitable drugs (whether these ones or not I wouldn't know) while not completely undermining it.

[Bryn]

The desired objective, then, being to reduce the overactive immune system reaction with syuitable drugs (whether these ones or not I wouldn't know) while not completely undermining it.

Quite. Perhaps Flay or one of our other medics might pass by and offer clarification.

[oddoneout]

The desired objective, then, being to reduce the overactive immune system reaction with syuitable drugs (whether these ones or not I wouldn't know) while not completely undermining it.

That makes sense - unfortunate then that the treatment appears to cause such potentially dangerous other problems.

[Dave2002]

So much for that! - https://www.theguardian.com/science/...b-global-en-GB

Sorry if we’ve already seen this one.