Coronavirus

[Bryn]

Should we all be folding@home to help the research effort?

https://foldingathome.org/

https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...at-coronavirus

Please, everybody, download and install this program. It's a significant contribution we all can make to powering the research towards defeating COVID-19.

[Dave2002]

Please, everybody, download and install this program. It's a significant contribution we all can make to powering the research towards defeating COVID-19.

i would advise caution. The motives are good, but the program may make your computer run very hot for extended periods, and additionally use more electricity than you expect. Perhaps leave this to supercomputers.

[Bryn]

i would advise caution. The motives are good, but the program may make your computer run very hot for extended periods, and additionally use more electricity than you expect. Perhaps leave this to supercomputers.

Oh, I was taking that into consideration, using decent cooling bases for instance. The extra electricity constitutes part of my contribution to the overall computing power. Not powering the screen helps.

[Dave2002]

Oh, I was taking that into consideration, using decent cooling bases for instance. The extra electricity constitutes part of my contribution to the overall computing power. Not powering the screen helps.

OK - though I did try quite a number of those community efforts years ago - and I thought and believed I was doing a good thing. Some of them were relatively low impact on my computers, but I remember one which was not. I think one even came with a health warning not to try it on a laptop. I haven't tried the latest one, but I believe that it not only uses the CPU, but also the GPUs, and reports suggest that it will actually make even a quite powerful computer run hot, and the fans may sound like a 707 taking off. That's why I suggested caution, and maybe leaving the heavy duty computing to big supercomputers and server farms.

There would be little point in many people putting their own personal computers out of action, even in this seemingly good cause. It's a pity that most of the projects of this type I've seen don't have an option for throttling back the CPU activity. That would slow down the projects, but would reduce the likelihood of equipment failing. Whether the developers would consider them worth while with such throttling back I'm not sure - but maybe run them at 1/2 or even 1/4 of full speed (typical).

[Pulcinella]

I have a 21.5” iMac running Mojave 10.14.6 (not yet upgraded to whatever the latest iOS is) that is now idle nearly all the time, and electricity is not a problem with my solar panels, but I'm not aware of the machine even having a fan, and would be a bit concerned about it overheating if left unattended (and hence used significantly by this programme) for a long period/overnight.
Is there something about my Mac that I don't know?
Perhaps I should Google 'Can an iMac overheat'?

PS: I did, and found this, admittedly from a while back, but surely still true, so I should be OK.
Jan 25, 2012
#2
iMacs do not overheat. They have three fans that rev up if it gets too hot. If the fans are not able to cool the computer down, the iMac will shut itself off to prevent damage. Aluminum iMacs always feel warm or hot to the touch. This is because they are made of metal and metal is a good heat conductor. This is also why Macbook Pro always feel very hot. In fact, the iMac's body acts as a giant passive heat sink. It is all normal and nothing to worry about.

[Dave2002]

The indications in Italy and Iceland seem to be that there are cases in the asymptomatic population, but these are not actually a huge proportion of the population.

Actually if the number of asymptomatic cases is relatively small, that presumably means that the proportion of uninfected people - either known to have, or have had, the disease, or asymptomatic, is larger than might otherwise have been the case. Thus there will still be a very large number of people in a population who would be at risk - not having developed any kind of putative immunity. There are assumptions here that the proportions will be similar in different countries, and that they are not going to change significantly over time - which of course may not hold indefinitely. Thus hopes of building up herd immunity, or that such herd immunity might be happening surreptitiously because of asymptomatic cases, seem to have been largely snuffed out, thus suggesting that there really is a need for significant caution until the threat levels drop significantly.

Some EU countries (other than the UK which to many intents and purposes still is in the EU until the end of the transition period) are now releasing their full lockdown constraints. The UK should at least watch and learn from the experiences in those countries, and unlike the onset period of the disease where perhaps [my opinion is that it was too slow - but following Mao Tse Tung's comment on the French Revolution, we might say that "it's too early to tell") it has acted too slowly. It might be very helpful if it did not act too rapidly to release any constraints. Note also that some of the countries which are releasing lockdown constraints may not have been as badly affected as the UK will be seen to have been.

[Dave2002]

I have a 21.5” iMac running Mojave 10.14.6 (not yet upgraded to whatever the latest iOS is) that is now idle nearly all the time, and electricity is not a problem with my solar panels, but I'm not aware of the machine even having a fan, and would be a bit concerned about it overheating if left unattended (and hence used significantly by this programme) for a long period/overnight.
Is there something about my Mac that I don't know?
Perhaps I should Google 'Can an iMac overheat'?

PS: I did, and found this, admittedly from a while back, but surely still true, so I should be OK.
Jan 25, 2012
#2
iMacs do not overheat. They have three fans that rev up if it gets too hot. If the fans are not able to cool the computer down, the iMac will shut itself off to prevent damage. Aluminum iMacs always feel warm or hot to the touch. This is because they are made of metal and metal is a good heat conductor. This is also why Macbook Pro always feel very hot. In fact, the iMac's body acts as a giant passive heat sink. It is all normal and nothing to worry about.

Mac laptops definitely do have fans, and they can whirr up if the system detects that there is a heat problem. If you have a lightly loaded machine with loads of spare space this may not happen often. iMacs do have fans, and they can go into a heated state. Whether they actually overheat is a matter of semantics, but what will happen is that first of all the fans will come on, then the processor will go into effectively a reduced power mode - which means that the machine's performance will reduce very considerably - thus not actually doing the work which was intended at anything like the hoped for rate. If you define overheating to be a condition in which serious damage is done to the computer, then perhaps Macs do not overheat, as protective measures are kicked in before that happens, but you will definitely notice this if and when it happens. Many people who use Macs with low levels of cpu activity are completely unaware that there are fans, as the machines are very quiet under those conditions.

A Mac which experiences problems such as I have mentioned may become unusable if the processor slows down enough. I was involved with one machine which had that issue. It would not cope with normal office work, and was eventually replaced, though we may have extended its useful life by about a year by putting in more memory and different fan controls - but ultimately the most effective solution was to replace the machine. The cost of doing that was less than the time wasted by the employee whose work was slowed down.

It could be OK to try with new Macs, but monitor the performance of the machine, and if there is significant fan activity, consider stopping that program. Older ones may hit problems very quickly, IMO. I could test this, though I'm not rushing to do this with my two older iMacs. PCs, and particularly older PCs, could also have very similar behaviour.

[Count Boso]

i would advise caution. The motives are good, but the program may make your computer run very hot for extended periods, and additionally use more electricity than you expect. Perhaps leave this to supercomputers.

I've been using the KCL app on my phone. They say many research institutes are collaborating (see FAQ 'Who will be using my data?'):

"Anonymized data may be shared with partner research institutions. To do so an anonymous code will be generated to replace your personal details. Our partner institutions include: Harvard University, Stanford University, Massachusetts General Hospital, Tufts University, Berkeley University, Nottingham University, University of Trento and Lundt University. Some of these research institutions are in the US, and so are not governed by GDPR, and our privacy policy explains this."

[Pulcinella]

Thanks for your comment, Dave.
Still pondering.

[Dave2002]

Thanks for your comment, Dave.
Still pondering.

I would suggest trying it - but keep an eye on it, and abort if you detect problems.

Also, if you want to use the machine, which you say is largely idle, see if the program goes into background mode quickly when you try to use the machine. A well behaved community project should work that way, but some in the past were perhaps not so good. Another issue with some of those projects is that they may not checkpoint frequently enough, so if you leave your computer running for 12 hours during which time "useful" work is done on the project - but there is no checkpointing - then turn the machine off, effectively all the work done is written off. Getting the balance right by those setting up the computer resources at the project end might be a bit difficult, though that's probably their problem, not yours.

[Bryn]

OK - though I did try quite a number of those community efforts years ago - and I thought and believed I was doing a good thing. Some of them were relatively low impact on my computers, but I remember one which was not. I think one even came with a health warning not to try it on a laptop. I haven't tried the latest one, but I believe that it not only uses the CPU, but also the GPUs, and reports suggest that it will actually make even a quite powerful computer run hot, and the fans may sound like a 707 taking off. That's why I suggested caution, and maybe leaving the heavy duty computing to big supercomputers and server farms.

There would be little point in many people putting their own personal computers out of action, even in this seemingly good cause. It's a pity that most of the projects of this type I've seen don't have an option for throttling back the CPU activity. That would slow down the projects, but would reduce the likelihood of equipment failing. Whether the developers would consider them worth while with such throttling back I'm not sure - but maybe run them at 1/2 or even 1/4 of full speed (typical).

Dave. I feel I must refer you to a quote from my old Marxist-Leninist days: "It won't do, it won't do. You must investigate. You must not talk nonsense" (Mao Zedong - "Oppose book worship")

This foldng@home program not only has a sliding scale of CPU usage. It starts you off by assuming you have a laptop and want to use only a very low proportion of your CPU power to contribute. My 2 i7 laptops have been running through the night at full stretch and both cores of the faster laptop have been running at between 60°C and 80°C (max). Rated maximum for the processor concerned is 100°C.

[Pulcinella]

Dave. I feel I must refer you to a quote from my old Marxist-Leninist days: "It won't do, it won't do. You must investigate. You must not talk nonsense" (Mao Zedong - "Oppose book worship")

This foldng@home program not only has a sliding scale of CPU usage. It starts you off by assuming you have a laptop and want to use only a very low proportion of your CPU power to contribute. My 2 i7 laptops have been running through the night at full stretch and both cores of the faster laptop have been running at between 60°C and 80°C (max). Rated maximum for the processor concerned is 100°C.

That's encouraging.
Thanks, Bryn.

[Bryn]

That's encouraging.
Thanks, Bryn.

I have just checked the slower Laptop and its 4 cores have been running at between 60°C and 75°C. If using Windows, search for "download core temp" and download and run alcpu's core-temp-setup.exe. It's free and malware-free (I checked with three different malware detectors).

[Pulcinella]

Now running on my iMac: says 'All systems go'.


Good to know that it might just be of help.

[Dave2002]

Dave. I feel I must refer you to a quote from my old Marxist-Leninist days: "It won't do, it won't do. You must investigate. You must not talk nonsense" (Mao Zedong - "Oppose book worship")

This foldng@home program not only has a sliding scale of CPU usage. It starts you off by assuming you have a laptop and want to use only a very low proportion of your CPU power to contribute. My 2 i7 laptops have been running through the night at full stretch and both cores of the faster laptop have been running at between 60°C and 80°C (max). Rated maximum for the processor concerned is 100°C.

I never was a Marxist-Leninist! Sorry if I was talking nonsense - though I was unaware that I was.

If the folding home program behaves as you say, then it's probably OK. I didn't know the rating for an i7 is 100°C, though that in itself is not necessarily a reason to push to the limits. In the days whan I had PCs I installed temperature monitoring programs, and I'd watch the temperature rise from around 40 to 60 or even 70 if I ran one of these community project programs. Also I recall the room becoming a bit hotter too. I wouldn't go out of my way to run the temperature up to much over 70.

I think machines which are running close to idle may be starting from a low temperature base, perhaps even as low as 20°C. I don't see any point in running machines up to high temperatures and running the risk of failures. I could run that program on my iMacs, though that might not be optimum as they are older, and draw significantly more power than the laptops. More modern computers either have better CPU performance, or better energy performance, but not necessarily both at the same time. I'm not sure which of the machines I have would be optimum for running this kind of application. Pulcinella's iMac, being newish (I assume), is probably very good.