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[oddoneout]

It's not the leaving/not leaving bit which particularly upsets me, but the thought that we now have a PM who it seems is prepared to play "silly games" in order (perhaps - huh!) to get his own way. I think we have a baby throwing toys out of the pram, but the pram may well topple over, and the toys won't be recovered, and the pram will be trashed.

Perhaps the EU would play sensible, and not impose similar constraints on UK citizens travelling in each of the member states, but with this wonderful example, why should they?

There's no reason that I can see why each EU country shouldn't do that individually - not just the EU as a bloc. Holiday travel would become more of a nightmare, while workers, such as lorry drivers, who may have to transport goods across several EU countries, would have a very hard time - and we'd all suffer as a result.

Some info about British nationals in the EU.

https://dispatcheseurope.com/no-deal-no-problem-more-eu-countries-guarantee-british-expats-post-brexit-grace-periods/

From this it would seem that a member of my family married to an American spouse and living in the Netherlands will be in an interesting position since it appears their respective rights will be very different - and that's before travel for work outside the Netherlands/within the rest of the EU is factored in. Their children will presumably find themselves having to make choices about nationality which up to now haven't been necessary.
Being international freelance musicians is frankly challenge enough these days without all this stupidity and uncertainty to factor in.

[Dave2002]

I did read a considerable chunk of the earlier Article 50 agreements, and many of the arrangements seemed fair and sensible - on both sides. If Johnson and Patel are about to tear up those previously agreed arrangements, then who is to say what the EU will do? One can hope that there is some sanity somewhere, but it may not be on the British side.

[Joseph K]

The "opposition" is quite happy to go along with what those they supposedly "oppose" want
that's NOT an "opposition" then, is it ?

Proof?

[MrGongGong]

Proof?

"We all recognise that the issue of Brexit has been divisive in our communities and sometimes in our party too.

As democrats, Labour accepted the result of the 2016 referendum."

(https://labour.org.uk/latest/stories...t-public-vote/)



"Accepting" the result of a flawed vote means they are quite happy for the UK to leave the EU.
Same as the Tories.... the leader of the Labour party is a life-long opponent of the EU as are many of it's leading members.
Same as the government....

Doesn't matter whether it's organic sourdough or Mothers Pride on the outside of the sh*t sandwich.

[Bella Kemp]

Not to add to the sense of gloom, but Yeats in The Second Coming seems to point so clearly to our current situation where both Left and Right have utterly lost the plot. There may be hope, however: the idea of a government of national unity holds appeal and there are strong contenders to lead it (e.g. Ken Clarke, Keir Starmer, Harriet Harman). It would, frankly, feel like the grownups taking over after the silly children have messed up.

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

[LeMartinPecheur]

Not to add to the sense of gloom, but Yeats in The Second Coming seems to point so clearly to our current situation where both Left and Right have utterly lost the plot. There may be hope, however: the idea of a government of national unity holds appeal and there are strong contenders to lead it (e.g. Ken Clarke, Keir Starmer, Harriet Harman). It would, frankly, feel like the grownups taking over after the silly children have messed up.

Turning and turning in the widening gyre
The falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the centre cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand.
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight: somewhere in sands of the desert
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
Reel shadows of the indignant desert birds.
The darkness drops again; but now I know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle,
And what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
Slouches towards Bethlehem to be born?

It's a very great poem and one I've loved since schooldays. But despite its apparent relevance I feel it will be completely degraded by use in the current context

[Joseph K]

"We all recognise that the issue of Brexit has been divisive in our communities and sometimes in our party too.

As democrats, Labour accepted the result of the 2016 referendum."

(https://labour.org.uk/latest/stories...t-public-vote/)



"Accepting" the result of a flawed vote means they are quite happy for the UK to leave the EU.
Same as the Tories.... the leader of the Labour party is a life-long opponent of the EU as are many of it's leading members.
Same as the government....

Doesn't matter whether it's organic sourdough or Mothers Pride on the outside of the sh*t sandwich.

Oh, I see, you don't mean 'opposing' the government, you mean 'opposing' the result of the referendum.

From what I can tell, Labour's Brexit policy would be something like a Brexit-in-name-only kind of deal. But you're so fanatical you appear unable to differentiate between that and a no-deal Brexit.

[MrGongGong]

Oh, I see, you don't mean 'opposing' the government, you mean 'opposing' the result of the referendum.

From what I can tell, Labour's Brexit policy would be something like a Brexit-in-name-only kind of deal. But you're so fanatical you appear unable to differentiate between that and a no-deal Brexit.

I'm not "fanatical" at all (it is interesting to note how it has become a sign of "fanaticism" for people to want to carry on collaborating with people in the rest of Europe)
The so-called "opposition" has failed to oppose the whole nonsense from the start
Labours policy is effectively the same as that of the Tories
but the key point is where you say "From what I can tell" which perfectly illustrates the pathetic dithering on the part of the so-called "opposition"

Like I said, it matters little what type of bread you have

[Dave2002]

Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
The ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.

Those lines from the first verse seem appropriate.

[Joseph K]

I'm not "fanatical" at all (it is interesting to note how it has become a sign of "fanaticism" for people to want to carry on collaborating with people in the rest of Europe)

Does Norway not collaborate with the rest of Europe?

You're fanatical because you cannot differentiate between Labour's Brexit policies and those of the Tories.

Labours policy is effectively the same as that of the Tories

Demonstrably untrue.

https://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.com/2018/03/why-do-so-many-corbyn-critics-insist-on.html

but the key point is where you say "From what I can tell" which perfectly illustrates the pathetic dithering on the part of the so-called "opposition"

No, it is indicative more of myself 'as far as I can tell' because in all honesty, I haven't looked into or read that much about it.

Still, I have read enough and listened to people to understand that a nuanced position is necessary. It is difficult to be enthusiastic about the EU when, in the case of Greece, it has enforced harsh austerity measures even when Greece voted against it. Hence, I listen with some interest the opinions of Yanis Varoufakis, since he was intimately involved in that and has a nuanced and pragmatic ideas over Labour's strategy towards the EU.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seKO_s_Rl-o

[MrGongGong]

Does Norway not collaborate with the rest of Europe?

You're fanatical because you cannot differentiate between Labour's Brexit policies and those of the Tories.



Demonstrably untrue.

https://anotherangryvoice.blogspot.com/2018/03/why-do-so-many-corbyn-critics-insist-on.html

No, it is indicative more of myself 'as far as I can tell' because in all honesty, I haven't looked into or read that much about it.

Still, I have read enough and listened to people to understand that a nuanced position is necessary. It is difficult to be enthusiastic about the EU when, in the case of Greece, it has enforced harsh austerity measures even when Greece voted against it. Hence, I listen with some interest the opinions of Yanis Varoufakis, since he was intimately involved in that and has a nuanced and pragmatic ideas over Labour's strategy towards the EU.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=seKO_s_Rl-o

Aaaah

So my experience of working on EU funded projects in many countries (including Norway and Greece) is that the UK isn't planning to contribute in the way that Norway does.
The whole emphasis is on ending FoM (which is also Labour policy) and taking us away from EU collaborations.

The worst folk of all in all of this (IMV) are those on the "left" of politics who seem to think we can go and live in a Socialist paradise regardless of what the rest of the world does.
Voting to leave the EU puts the likes of JRM and chums in charge REGARDLESS of what your motivation is

And YES, i'm very excercised by this because lots of ignorant and delusional people are in the process of destroying things that I, and many others, have spent many years creating and nuturing.