The BBC 1 'Prime Minister' debate

[teamsaint]

Well this is all very strange, but then what isn't right now.

Right across the spectrum people are complaining about binary thinking, yes/no positions, and calling for compromise.

And yet when Labour does exactly that, nuance its position and continues to adapt its strategy to the situation, that is wrong too.

Principles are important, but strategy is too. and it seems to me there are two critical points here.
First, moving to a solid remain position too early would have been political suicide for Labour. A dead party can't do much for social justice.
Second, you have to adapt strategy and tactics to events, and the situation. And this is what Labour has done. Labour has to act as the situation develops, as well as helping move the situation on.
If I need to get to central London, hailing a cab outside my front door isn't going to work. But a drive to Ricmond and then hailing a cab probably will.

As for the peace in Europe issue, well I have always been of the opinion that this is only part, though an important part , of the story. We export our wars these days, and the EU waved through military action by EU countries in at least two separate conflicts over the last couple of decades.

[MrGongGong]

Many young people who see no future under capitalism have been drawn to labour under the Corbyn McDonnell leadership. It may not be a perfect alternative - but where is one ever to be found? You may not have had experience of a radical reforming government, having been (I presume?) born after the Attlee Labour government. That government had weaknesses in many areas: on race, the Empire and the arms race; but where it reformed to counter what had always been other worst features of capitalism it had huge effects on everyday lives and led to the 1960s, that era that evinced the popularised radical movements in the arts, as well as bequeathing comprehensive education and the NHS. Everyone on this side of the argument need to give critical support at this time where and when it is so vitally needed, or we're just undermining our case and sowing demoralisation.

Having followed your positions for several years now, your comments on this and other political matters lead one inescapably to the conclusion that a dictatorship is preferable to an informed public voting for their choice of leadership in democratic elections. Your work in music and musical education wins huge respect here and beyond this forum, I should think and hope, so isn't it time to ditch the caustic throwaway one-liners and sectarian cynicism, and come on board?

The young folks who have been drawn to Labour are also those who largely would see themselves as Europeans. The Labour party have shafted them.
Nothing wrong with an INFORMED public vote on important things BUT we haven't had that.
To think that the "choice" is between a dictatorship and the rule of a simple (in more ways than one ?) majority, as many would suggest, to me is indicative of a lack of imagination.

I can't vote for a party that is committed to enabling the UK to walk away from our collaborations and gives credence to those who seek to cause violence and hatred.
There can be no (IMV) "coming together" over Brexit it has become a binary choice that we were tricked into (with the support of the Labour party).

I'm sick of those people who are enthusiastically (or in Corbyn's case complicit in) wanting to destroy things that many of us have spent years developing and nurturing.

[Joseph K]

If you wanted to decide about what is the best relationship that we should have with the rest of Europe then maybe asking people who have experience and knowledge would be a good idea?

Lot's of people voted for Mr Corbyn but he is insistent on "respecting" a dodgy vote based on lies and false information.

How about asking people who KNOW stuff to make important decisions about the stuff they know?

(I've said this too many times and a bit of listening to R5 while travelling this morning makes me think this even more)
Fetishising "democracy" is very dangerous and rather delusional.

Well, Corbyn has asked someone to make important decisions etc. - Keir Starmer.

Also, if you think the first referendum was based on lies and misinformation, what would your solution to this be? A second referendum?

You appear to be fetishizing 'competence', as though this exists outside of ideology, and all we need are competent informed managers of society to make important decisions for us.

[Joseph K]

Well this is all very strange, but then what isn't right now.

Right across the spectrum people are complaining about binary thinking, yes/no positions, and calling for compromise.

And yet when Labour does exactly that, nuance its position and continues to adapt its strategy to the situation, that is wrong too.

Principles are important, but strategy is too. and it seems to me there are two critical points here.
First, moving to a solid remain position too early would have been political suicide for Labour. A dead party can't do much for social justice.
Second, you have to adapt strategy and tactics to events, and the situation. And this is what Labour has done. Labour has to act as the situation develops, as well as helping move the situation on.
If I need to get to central London, hailing a cab outside my front door isn't going to work. But a drive to Ricmond and then hailing a cab probably will.

As for the peace in Europe issue, well I have always been of the opinion that this is only part, though an important part , of the story. We export our wars these days, and the EU waved through military action by EU countries in at least two separate conflicts over the last couple of decades.

[MrGongGong]

Well, Corbyn has asked someone to make important decisions etc. - Keir Starmer.

Also, if you think the first referendum was based on lies and misinformation, what would your solution to this be? A second referendum?

You appear to be fetishizing 'competence', as though this exists outside of ideology, and all we need are competent informed managers of society to make important decisions for us.

We don't need another vote
We elect REPRESENTATIVES not DELEGATES

We need people to represent our best interests which doesn't mean doing our bidding.

[Serial_Apologist]

S_A simple question were Labour right to instantly suspend Alistair Campbell .... ???

I don't think they were, no. Next?

[Serial_Apologist]

The young folks who have been drawn to Labour are also those who largely would see themselves as Europeans. The Labour party have shafted them.

It isn't Labour that has shafted the up and coming generations but capitalism - one exemplification of which has taken the form of the EU, which for all its faults had at least taken on board some of the rights fought for by our forefathers while prohibiting others (eg the abovementioned "restrictive anti-monopoly practices"). But there is a "left" argument that those gains are now in jeopardy, owing 1) to the fact that neoliberal globalisation, of which the EU is one of the main power brokers, has brought a reaction from the far right in its train because the left has been divided: non of which is Mr Corbyn's fault.

Nothing wrong with an INFORMED public vote on important things BUT we haven't had that.
To think that the "choice" is between a dictatorship and the rule of a simple (in more ways than one ?) majority, as many would suggest, to me is indicative of a lack of imagination.

Then I suggest you off and visit somewhere like Stockton or Darlington-on Tees, where if you stood handing out leaflets I think you would get some colourful replies to your charge that people weren't informed prior to voting Brexit. I agree they weren't, and I'm sure Jeremy Corbyn does ... but there, as I've tried to explain, is where his problem lies. And the populist press are making mincemeat out of the fact this morning. Are you on their side?

I can't vote for a party that is committed to enabling the UK to walk away from our collaborations and gives credence to those who seek to cause violence and hatred.

I don't get that. What violence and hatred?

There can be no (IMV) "coming together" over Brexit it has become a binary choice that we were tricked into (with the support of the Labour party).

Where's the disagreement there then - apart from dumping blame on Labour, again?

I'm sick of those people who are enthusiastically (or in Corbyn's case complicit in) wanting to destroy things that many of us have spent years developing and nurturing.

You're applying very tenuous logic there, Gongers!

[Dave2002]

We don't need another vote (praps)
We elect REPRESENTATIVES not DELEGATES

We need people to represent our best interests which doesn't mean doing our bidding.

Just try informing people "out there" that!

[MrGongGong]

It isn't Labour that has shafted the up and coming generations but capitalism - one exemplification of which has taken the form of the EU, which for all its faults had at least taken on board some of the rights fought for by our forefathers while prohibiting others (eg the abovementioned "restrictive anti-monopoly practices"). But there is a "left" argument that those gains are now in jeopardy, owing 1) to the fact that neoliberal globalisation, of which the EU is one of the main power brokers, has brought a reaction from the far right in its train because the left has been divided: non of which is Mr Corbyn's fault.

The Labour party went along with the whole referendum nonsense. They have promised to "respect" it. The net result for many folks, and young people, in particular, is a drastic reduction in opportunities. In the same way that many folks in their 20's don't trust the Lib Dems after Clegg's betrayal (and few are taken in by the lacklustre "apology" or "logic"), I think Labour has blown it.

Then I suggest you off and visit somewhere like Stockton or Darlington-on Tees, where if you stood handing out leaflets I think you would get some colourful replies to your charge that people weren't informed prior to voting Brexit. I agree they weren't, and I'm sure Jeremy Corbyn does ... but there, as I've tried to explain, is where his problem lies. And the populist press is making mincemeat out of the fact this morning. Are you on their side?

Interesting. I spent a fair bit of time in Middlesborough earlier this year. People there have been neglected NOT by the EU (who have funded many initiatives) but by successive UK Governments. I don't give a sh*t about the populist press BUT the Labour party in insisting on "respecting" the vote is simply condemning those who have the least to suffer the most. I thought they stood for something else ?

I don't get that. What violence and hatred?

UKIP/ Brexit Party and the rest who have been enabled by this. I have friends who are now nervous of walking down the street because they are the "wrong" colour, and have suffered verbal abuse. THIS is facilitated by the likes of UKIP but those comfortably off "intellectual socialists" are complicit in enabling this

Where's the disagreement there then - apart from dumping blame on Labour, again?

The Labour party voted FOR article 50
The Labour party went along with the whole referendum in the first place
If you are going to paint the floor, don't start at the door!

You're applying very tenuous logic there, Gongers!

I'm frequently told to "get over it" and the like... for those of us who work in culture, education or other collaborations leaving the EU is a disaster and will result in the loss of work, collaborations and leave us all worse off. "Tenuous" ? not if you look in my diary ..........(or the diaries of many other musicians)

[teamsaint]

We don't need another vote
We elect REPRESENTATIVES not DELEGATES

We need people to represent our best interests which doesn't mean doing our bidding.

Representatives , whilst having a free hand, ought to take careful note of the views of those who voted for them, IMO, especially if 70 % of them are in favour of something.

[gradus]

I dug out Willie Rushton's The Reluctant Euro from 1980 -very amusing if a little dated in some respects but it reminded me that the much-revered Clement Atlee had a clear view on Europe :https://www.labourleave.org.uk/what_did_clement_atle

[Serial_Apologist]

The Labour party went along with the whole referendum nonsense. They have promised to "respect" it. The net result for many folks, and young people, in particular, is a drastic reduction in opportunities. In the same way that many folks in their 20's don't trust the Lib Dems after Clegg's betrayal (and few are taken in by the lacklustre "apology" or "logic"), I think Labour has blown it.

Teamsaint has adequately covered this in his post #391, so I won't reiterate my points.

Interesting. I spent a fair bit of time in Middlesborough earlier this year. People there have been neglected NOT by the EU (who have funded many initiatives) but by successive UK Governments. I don't give a sh*t about the populist press BUT the Labour party in insisting on "respecting" the vote is simply condemning those who have the least to suffer the most. I thought they stood for something else ?

The link to the Guardian article of 2015 gives an idea of where the different "protagonists" for the Labour Party leadership stood on having the referendum. One gets an idea of where people were coming from. As it is, while the bulk of the party membership was for Remain, as it still is, I don't think anyone, either inside or outside politics, expected the result to be what it turned out to be. The idea that a second referendum would have the benefit of a more informed voting public seems incapable of breaking through entrenched defensiveness; this makes it all too easy to be "wise after the event". Either one agrees with democracy - which means siding with those arguing that people should have the rright to express a change of mind by means of a second referendum - or one sides with those on the Brexit side who are too defensive of their misjudgements to admit that democracy is not something one only resorts to when sure the vote result will be acceptable to ones own side: the charge always thrown at us "remoaners" in a classic Freudian instance of projection.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/jul/25/jeremy-corbyn-draws-fire-position-future-britain-eu-membership

UKIP/ Brexit Party and the rest who have been enabled by this. I have friends who are now nervous of walking down the street because they are the "wrong" colour, and have suffered verbal abuse. THIS is facilitated by the likes of UKIP but those comfortably off "intellectual socialists" are complicit in enabling this

The Labour party voted FOR article 50
The Labour party went along with the whole referendum in the first place
If you are going to paint the floor, don't start at the door!

I've already disagreed for the reasons I've given. "Constructive ambiguity" was the description of Corbyn's tactics by an audience member on a chat show this morning. Didn't Labour have to vote for Article 50 because Barnier had insisted that EU rules dictated negotiations could not ensue until it had been signed? Admittedly I may be wrong about this, but the fact is that a majority of Labour MPs, who, remember, were dead set against Corbyn being leader, would have had to vote for its signing for it to have passed through the Commons.

[Joseph K]

The Labour party went along with the whole referendum nonsense. They have promised to "respect" it. The net result for many folks, and young people, in particular, is a drastic reduction in opportunities. In the same way that many folks in their 20's don't trust the Lib Dems after Clegg's betrayal (and few are taken in by the lacklustre "apology" or "logic"), I think Labour has blown it.

'Labour has blown it' - when exactly? When they got 40% of the vote in 2017, and would have won if it had just been people in their 20s voting? So what has happened since then - when did this betrayal begin? Because Labour's Brexit strategy hasn't changed substantially since 2017.

[MrGongGong]

Representatives , whilst having a free hand, ought to take careful note of the views of those who voted for them, IMO, especially if 70 % of them are in favour of something.

Indeed they do need to take all opinions into account
BUT the job is not to do the bidding of those who vote but to act in the best interests of the country

Where I live there is no chance in a million years of my MP ever representing me or the things I do.

[Dave2002]

Where I live there is no chance in a million years of my MP ever representing me or the things I do.

I don't think I've ever lived in a place where the person I voted for became my MP. A couple of MPs were actually helpful to me on some personal consumer matters, but on most policy matters, both local and national, particularly in recent times, my MP has not acted in accordance with my hopes.