The BBC 1 'Prime Minister' debate

[Serial_Apologist]

I think there are many thousands of people in the country who would make a better prime minister than the actual next one (whichever of the candidates is chosen)!

Interesting, isn't it, that the surrounding team is always brought in as the rescue factor when talking about Boris Johnson, and yet when it comes to Labour the focus is always squarely put on Corbyn.

By which I mean that Corbyn is a team player par excellence - something which none of the Tory contenders can be described as.

[Stunsworth]

I think there are many thousands of people in the country who would make a better prime minister than the actual next one (whichever of the candidates is chosen)!

From what I've seen all of the current candidates would struggle as middle managers in most companies.

[Richard Tarleton]

By which I mean that Corbyn is a team player par excellence - something which none of the Tory contenders can be described as.

except when the rest of the team are wrong, S_A?

The total number of votes cast by Jeremy Corbyn against the Labour party whip, from 1983 onwards is 617.
These are made up as follows:
1983: 19 – which made him the 8th most rebellious Labour MP
1987: 36 – 7th most rebellious Labour MP
1992: 72 – 3rd most rebellious Labour MP
1997: 64 – the most rebellious Labour MP
2001: 148 – the most rebellious Labour MP
2005: 216 – the most rebellious Labour MP
2010: 62 – 3rd most rebellious Labour MP
In other words, whilst Labour was in government, Corbyn was consistently the most rebellious Labour MP, rebelling a total of 428 times. In opposition, he was a little less rebellious, in both absolute and relative terms, but still consistently in the top 10 most rebellious Labour MPs. (from Philip Cowley and Mark Stuart's research on Parliament)

And this is a team player?

[Dave2002]

My vote goes to

I had to use some ingenuity to figure this one.

Steps - save the screen, and edit the image (crop) and insert into file. Then use Google Image search using that file , et voilà!

[MrGongGong]

I had to use some ingenuity to figure this one.

Steps - save the screen, and edit the image (crop) and insert into file. Then use Google Image search using that file , et voilà!

You mean to say you haven't come across Yaffle ?
Where on earth have you been ?

[MrGongGong]

By which I mean that Corbyn is a team player par excellence - something which none of the Tory contenders can be described as.

Particularly when the game that the Labour party has been playing is an endless series of rounds of "Peoples Front of Judea" sketch..
Or even...... run towards the open goal with the ball at your feet and stop for a cup of tea and discussion about John Innes instead of scoring a goal

[Serial_Apologist]

except when the rest of the team are wrong, S_A?

Or were... I'm not thinking of earlier stages in Labour's illustrious history. When you think how undemicratic the party became under Kinnock and Bliar I am quite sure one of Corbyn's attractions when it has come to increasing membership numbers has been his past record of dissidence.

And this is a team player?

Prior to becoming party leader Corbyn has never been a front bencher or shadow cabinet member, and so the question of party loyalty has never arisen in the way it sometimes did for Benn. Up to the past few days, when, assuming the media's presentation of the facts is to be believed, against his mate John McDonnell's views on the matter he has held out against a People's Vote on Brexit, I would say he has been a team player. Certainly more of a team player than the Tories lined up for their leadership.

[Serial_Apologist]

Particularly when the game that the Labour party has been playing is an endless series of rounds of "Peoples Front of Judea" sketch..
Or even...... run towards the open goal with the ball at your feet and stop for a cup of tea and discussion about John Innes instead of scoring a goal

Are you saying then that had Corbyn and his team moved a bit faster Labour's support base in the North would have had a change of mind on Brexit? Because I'm not at all sure that would actually happen. By not acknowledging the cleft stick situation but calling for a People's Vote Labour would be taking one helluva gamble, no?

[teamsaint]

Are you saying then that had Corbyn and his team moved a bit faster Labour's support base in the North would have had a change of mind on Brexit? Because I'm not at all sure that would actually happen. By not acknowledging the cleft stick situation but calling for a People's Vote Labour would be taking one helluva gamble, no?

I think this also touches on FFs point about having immature electorate and politicians.
In fact, because of the treacherous cross party nature of Brexit, members having differing principles, and for reasons of party survival , Labour has chosen what I would call a nuanced approach on Brexit, which involves more than “yes or no” tactics. But understanding ( the reasons for) this nuanced approach seems well beyond many in the media who might ordinarily support the main opposition to the tories. so maybe FF was right to a point. But personally I would lay the blame at the door of the hystetically anti Corbyn media, ( including the liberal press) and not at the door of Labour Policy makers.

[Joseph K]

I think this also touches on FFs point about having immature electorate and politicians.
In fact, because of the treacherous cross party nature of Brexit, members having differing principles, and for reasons of party survival , Labour has chosen what I would call a nuanced approach on Brexit, which involves more than “yes or no” tactics. But understanding ( the reasons for) this nuanced approach seems well beyond many in the media who might ordinarily support the main opposition to the tories. so maybe FF was right to a point. But personally I would lay the blame at the door of the hystetically anti Corbyn media, ( including the liberal press) and not at the door of Labour Policy makers.

[MrGongGong]

Are you saying then that had Corbyn and his team moved a bit faster Labour's support base in the North would have had a change of mind on Brexit? Because I'm not at all sure that would actually happen. By not acknowledging the cleft stick situation but calling for a People's Vote Labour would be taking one helluva gamble, no?

I don't know
Call me simple but if my job title was "Bus Driver" I would drive a bus
if it was "Composer" I would write some music
it seems that if it is "Leader of the opposition" I can endorse the thing I'm supposedly opposed to and not "oppose"

The Labour party have spent the last few years playing ridiculous semantic games (all the nonsense about "centrists" and so on) while the country falls apart
the so-called "leader of the opposition" is a lifetime opponent of the EU, very few people are taken in by his apparent support.
Sure, the media have gone to town on him
BUT what he is prepared to do (Brexit) will seriously and adversely affect those whom he claims to care about
you don't create a more equal or fair society by handing power over to the likes of JRM and chums.....


and (to reply to teamsaint) you can't really have a "nuanced" approach to a YES/NO question (that you should have opposed from the start!)
it does come down to either believing in collaboration and co-operation with the rest of the EU or walking away

all old arguments...but the narrative of the UK (or rather ENGLAND) as some kind of cultural Galapagos has been allowed to take hold.

The Dutch PM was very good on R4 this morning..... IMV

[gradus]

I thought he was too.

[teamsaint]

Brexit isn’t , or wasn’t necessarily a yes/ no thing. Some people like to present it as such, but the possibilities three years ago were varied. And I think Labour have made some strategic errors along the way.

There were more collaborative options open to the UK , eg Norway EFTA style arrangements , ( as well as options around taking time to examine the options more thoroughly before triggering Article 50 ) but the tories chose to ignore these , as did some Labour MPs.

[MrGongGong]

Brexit isn’t , or wasn’t necessarily a yes/ no thing. Some people like to present it as such, but the possibilities three years ago were varied. And I think Labour have made some strategic errors along the way.

There were more collaborative options open to the UK , eg Norway EFTA style arrangements , ( as well as options around taking time to examine the options more thoroughly before triggering Article 50 ) but the tories chose to ignore these , as did some Labour MPs.

The way it was presented WAS / IS a Yes/No thing

We can't have the "Norway / Switzerland" thing without FoM (and the other three of the "four freedoms") and both the Tories and the Labour party don't want that and so on....
the Dutch PM on R4 this morning said some very interesting things about the "direction of travel" of the EU which would be a bit of a surprise to many in the UK (and the Labour party !)

[Frances_iom]

the Dutch PM on R4 this morning said some very interesting things about the "direction of travel" of the EU which would be a bit of a surprise to many in the UK (and the Labour party !)

After the last English civil war and with continued fear of the power of Rome they turned to the Dutch for governance - maybe yet again?