The BBC 1 'Prime Minister' debate

[Dave2002]

I have now watched it, too. The one point I would make is that I found it interesting that ITV chose to give Johnson both the first and the last word.

Indeed. Dreadful.

Going to hell in a handcart - I think.

[LMcD]

[QUOTE=Dave2002;746161]Indeed. Dreadful.

Going to hell in a handcart - I think.[/QUOTE]

How I wish I could disagree with you - but I think (indeed I think I know) that you're right. The clips of the debate shown on the BBC News confirmed the wisdom of my decision not to waste time watching the whole thing.

[Tony Halstead]

The EU presented to us the finest - and most complex - peace treaty ever devised. For the first time in centuries war between European nations simply seemed absurd. War in Europe, so common to those who have gone before us, is now a frankly silly idea to those of a younger generation. But now goodness knows what rough beasts are slouching towards Bethlehem. Jeremy Corbyn led our party away from the EU. Had he campaigned wholeheartedly for Europe we would not now be in this mess: the Labour party's influence in the referendum would have secured those extra few thousand votes that would have guaranteed our remaining . Mr Corbyn and his cronies have brought shame on the Labour party and on this country and now we face years more of the unspeakably vile Tories. A strong leader would have come out wholeheartedly for Remain today and trusted in the powers of persuasion and truth to win over those few Labour seats where Leave voters are apparently in the majority. Alas, he is no leader, but a perpetual protester who, suddenly faced with the unexpected prospect of having actually to do something, has catastrophically failed.

[LMcD]

The EU presented to us the finest - and most complex - peace treaty ever devised. For the first time in centuries war between European nations simply seemed absurd. War in Europe, so common to those who have gone before us, is now a frankly silly idea to those of a younger generation. But now goodness knows what rough beasts are slouching towards Bethlehem. Jeremy Corbyn led our party away from the EU. Had he campaigned wholeheartedly for Europe we would not now be in this mess: the Labour party's influence in the referendum would have secured those extra few thousand votes that would have guaranteed our remaining . Mr Corbyn and his cronies have brought shame on the Labour party and on this country and now we face years more of the unspeakably vile Tories. A strong leader would have come out wholeheartedly for Remain today and trusted in the powers of persuasion and truth to win over those few Labour seats where Leave voters are apparently in the majority. Alas, he is no leader, but a perpetual protester who, suddenly faced with the unexpected prospect of having actually to do something, has catastrophically failed.

While I agree with much of what you say, I'm not sure the Tories will necessarily be the sole - or even the main - beneficiaries of the catastrophic failure to which you refer. If the new Prime Minister fails to effect our departure from the EU by 31.10.2019 or shortly thereafter, the Brexit party and the Liberal Democrats could both do well in any resultant general election. This could in turn lead to years of a fractured and fragmented Parliament unless and until parties learn to cooperate sensibly for the good of the country. Dare I point out that on the mainland of Europe this has often been shown to be perfectly possible?

[Jazzrook]

Any comments on the Jeremy - Boris show yet?

Two bald con-men fighting over a comb.

JR

[Dave2002]

While I agree with much of what you say, I'm not sure the Tories will necessarily be the sole - or even the main - beneficiaries of the catastrophic failure to which you refer. If the new Prime Minister fails to effect our departure from the EU by 31.10.2019 or shortly thereafter, the Brexit party and the Liberal Democrats could both do well in any resultant general election. This could in turn lead to years of a fractured and fragmented Parliament unless and until parties learn to cooperate sensibly for the good of the country. Dare I point out that on the mainland of Europe this has often been shown to be perfectly possible?

Nah. It'll never catch on here.

[Dave2002]

Two bald con-men fighting over a comb.

JR

[Joseph K]

While I agree with much of what you say, I'm not sure the Tories will necessarily be the sole - or even the main - beneficiaries of the catastrophic failure to which you refer. If the new Prime Minister fails to effect our departure from the EU by 31.10.2019 or shortly thereafter, the Brexit party and the Liberal Democrats could both do well in any resultant general election. This could in turn lead to years of a fractured and fragmented Parliament unless and until parties learn to cooperate sensibly for the good of the country. Dare I point out that on the mainland of Europe this has often been shown to be perfectly possible?

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/opendemocracyuk/national-government-would-be-government-for-rich/

[Joseph K]

The EU presented to us the finest - and most complex - peace treaty ever devised. For the first time in centuries war between European nations simply seemed absurd. War in Europe, so common to those who have gone before us, is now a frankly silly idea to those of a younger generation. But now goodness knows what rough beasts are slouching towards Bethlehem. Jeremy Corbyn led our party away from the EU. Had he campaigned wholeheartedly for Europe we would not now be in this mess: the Labour party's influence in the referendum would have secured those extra few thousand votes that would have guaranteed our remaining . Mr Corbyn and his cronies have brought shame on the Labour party and on this country and now we face years more of the unspeakably vile Tories. A strong leader would have come out wholeheartedly for Remain today and trusted in the powers of persuasion and truth to win over those few Labour seats where Leave voters are apparently in the majority. Alas, he is no leader, but a perpetual protester who, suddenly faced with the unexpected prospect of having actually to do something, has catastrophically failed.

When you say 'Mr Corbyn and his cronies' by 'cronies' do you mean the majority of the membership who voted for him twice?

[Richard Tarleton]

When you say 'Mr Corbyn and his cronies' by 'cronies' do you mean the majority of the membership who voted for him twice?

Joseph, I'm not (unlike, apparently, Bella) a member of the Labour party (or any other) but I took this to be a reference to the small group of unelected advisers, all of whose names begin with M, who act as Jeremy Corbyn's gatekeepers, and who (according to less sympathetic observers, I couldn't possibly comment), also pull his strings.

[MrGongGong]

When you say 'Mr Corbyn and his cronies' by 'cronies' do you mean the majority of the membership who voted for him twice?

Having lots of people vote for you isn't indicative of being the best placed to make important decisions.

Bella is right as is Anton

[Serial_Apologist]

Having lots of people vote for you isn't indicative of being the best placed to make important decisions.

Bella is right as is Anton

Many young people who see no future under capitalism have been drawn to labour under the Corbyn McDonnell leadership. It may not be a perfect alternative - but where is one ever to be found? You may not have had experience of a radical reforming government, having been (I presume?) born after the Attlee Labour government. That government had weaknesses in many areas: on race, the Empire and the arms race; but where it reformed to counter what had always been other worst features of capitalism it had huge effects on everyday lives and led to the 1960s, that era that evinced the popularised radical movements in the arts, as well as bequeathing comprehensive education and the NHS. Everyone on this side of the argument need to give critical support at this time where and when it is so vitally needed, or we're just undermining our case and sowing demoralisation.

Having followed your positions for several years now, your comments on this and other political matters lead one inescapably to the conclusion that a dictatorship is preferable to an informed public voting for their choice of leadership in democratic elections. Your work in music and musical education wins huge respect here and beyond this forum, I should think and hope, so isn't it time to ditch the caustic throwaway one-liners and sectarian cynicism, and come on board?

[Joseph K]

Having lots of people vote for you isn't indicative of being the best placed to make important decisions.

Bella is right as is Anton

Just curious - who do you think is best placed to make important decisions?

[antongould]

Many young people who see no future under capitalism have been drawn to labour under the Corbyn McDonnell leadership. It may not be a perfect alternative - but where is one ever to be found? You may not have had experience of a radical reforming government, having been (I presume?) born after the Attlee Labour government. That government had weaknesses in many areas: on race, the Empire and the arms race; but where it reformed to counter what had always been other worst features of capitalism it had huge effects on everyday lives and led to the 1960s, that era that evinced the popularised radical movements in the arts, as well as bequeathing comprehensive education and the NHS. Everyone on this side of the argument need to give critical support at this time where and when it is so vitally needed, or we're just undermining our case and sowing demoralisation.

Having followed your positions for several years now, your comments on this and other political matters lead one inescapably to the conclusion that a dictatorship is preferable to an informed public voting for their choice of leadership in democratic elections. Your work in music and musical education wins huge respect here and beyond this forum, I should think and hope, so isn't it time to ditch the caustic throwaway one-liners and sectarian cynicism, and come on board?

S_A simple question were Labour right to instantly suspend Alistair Campbell .... ???

[MrGongGong]

Just curious - who do you think is best placed to make important decisions?

If you wanted to decide something about the history of the Scratch Orchestra then Bryn
If you wanted to decide something about MAX environments for live performance then Richard
If you wanted to decide about what is the best relationship that we should have with the rest of Europe then maybe asking people who have experience and knowledge would be a good idea?

Lot's of people voted for Mr Corbyn but he is insistent on "respecting" a dodgy vote based on lies and false information.

How about asking people who KNOW stuff to make important decisions about the stuff they know?

(I've said this too many times and a bit of listening to R5 while travelling this morning makes me think this even more)
Fetishising "democracy" is very dangerous and rather delusional.