The BBC 1 'Prime Minister' debate

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  • Maclintick
    Full Member
    • Jan 2012
    • 1085

    Originally posted by Joseph K View Post
    It's not just the UK 2019 - it was always the case that Marxist analysis didn't reflect the totality of the economy. The Marxist class analysis is based around the relationship to the means of production - those who work and produce (proletariat) and those who own (bourgeoisie).

    We've had similar discussions before about this, so I'll just leave this here -



    - David Harvey

    Also worth reading is this: https://www.theguardian.com/news/201...nist-manifesto


    … where Yanis Varoufakis points out the contemporary relevance of the Communist Manifesto.
    Thanks for this, Joseph K.
    Varoufakis is a renowned economist and a brilliantly entertaining and stylish polemicist, who admits to getting into hot water with puritanical Marxists by his self-classification as “a libertarian Marxist”, whatever that means -- to the uninitiated such as myself this shades into “The Judaean People’s Front” vs “The People’s Front of Judaea”, so I’m not exactly sure on which Marxian fence he sits, politically. David Harvey might be able to assist, I suppose, by identifying the overlapping classes of oppressed peoples which can apparently reside within the individual known as Varoufakis simultaneously.

    Aren’t several of Varoufakis's assertions questionable, though ? Far from living in an environment in which, according to Varoufakis, “capitalism was fragmented, local and timid “, Marx and Engels were at the epicentre of possibly the greatest industrially-fuelled global trade boom in history, reporting on what was before their very eyes. They would have had to exist in hermetic isolation to ignore the seething cauldron of revolutionary capitalism surrounding them in the Britain of 1848.

    Referring to conditions in 1991, when Fukuyama was making hubristic predictions of “The End of History”, Varoufakis says,“Most economists, including those sympathetic to Marx, doubted the manifesto’s prediction that “exploitation of the world-market” would give “a cosmopolitan character to production and consumption in every country”. But surely Marx and Engels in 1848 aren’t predicting the future state of capitalist society 150 years hence, but taking a forensic photoshot of British commerce and economic life at that time “The bourgeoisie has through its exploitation of the world market given a cosmopolitan character to production and consumption in every country “ i.e. they told it as it was — Britain the workshop of the world, exporting manufactured goods throughout the Empire & to the US and continental Europe, while ruthlessly extracting resources from their colonial possessions.

    Marx and Engels’ assumption that revolutionary developments in this country would proceed according to continental precedents — manning the barricades, fomenting violent revolution, culminating in the triumph of the proletariat, surely underestimated the inbred English distrust of “foreign” notions and of the hegemonic power of the Victorian British state to neutralise them. Cripes ! I’ve come over all Gramsciian, there. I must sit down for a bit….Perhaps M & E can be forgiven for apparent ignorance of the fact that the English done it — you know, that revolutionary thing where you chop the monarch’s head off & substitute an assembly of citizens to run the gaff — 200 years before they wrote their pamphlet, 130 years before the American Revolution, and 140-odd years before the French botched their attempt.

    Varoufakis hints that the manifesto chillingly predicts that capitalism will ultimately run amok and destroy itself “like the sorcerer who is no longer able to control the powers of the nether world whom he has called up by his spells”. This now reads like a prophesy of environmental catastrophe, of rampant capitalism, like some monstrous black hole, ingesting the Earth, which I’m not sure was in the authors’ minds in 1848, but is certainly consistent with the general direction of travel nowadays, and so may count as their most significant prediction.
    Last edited by Maclintick; 29-06-19, 14:33.

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    • Serial_Apologist
      Full Member
      • Dec 2010
      • 37928

      Originally posted by Conchis View Post
      This week, I've had some painters in, decorating my living-room and landing. The two men doing the work were both ex-army. In socio-economic terms, they would probably be described as 'C2'.

      They had tattoos on their arms and had obviously seen some rough stuff in the past but neither were particularly sweary. But when they were listening to the news and Corbyn's name was mentioned, one of them said 'I fucking hate that man'. The comment seemed to be instinctive. I didn't feel comfortable asking him to enlarge on why he 'hated that man', but the fact that Corbyn - a politician without effective political power - arouses such strong negative feelings in people who should be his natural constituency does not augur well.

      My next door neighbour has said much the same thing recently. And earlier this evening, I had dinner with a woman of 78 who would probably be classed as C1. She said she fears Brexit, but fears a Corbyn-led government more.

      Corbyn clearly has a problem if he is failing to get through to people like this in times like these.....
      For many people these days, politics seems to have become like show business. On the BBC lunchtime TV news today, a group of "the public" from Reading was being asked about the characteristics they would like to see in whichever candidate became leader of the Tory Party, and they were saying things like he had to have "charisma", be "passionate", and so on. In other words, qualities that could as easily have been ascribed to Hitler. Or Mao Ze Dong. Or Castro, Tito, Trotsky... anyone. Nothing about having the right politics. The BBC interviewer just smiled indulgently and said, "I see".

      The neighbour's cat was meaowing between every remark I was making, this afternoon. "I know, I know", I told her, "I don't much like Boris Johnson either".

      Comment

      • Maclintick
        Full Member
        • Jan 2012
        • 1085

        Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
        For many people these days, politics seems to have become like show business. On the BBC lunchtime TV news today, a group of "the public" from Reading was being asked about the characteristics they would like to see in whichever candidate became leader of the Tory Party, and they were saying things like he had to have "charisma", be "passionate", and so on. In other words, qualities that could as easily have been ascribed to Hitler. Or Mao Ze Dong. Or Castro, Tito, Trotsky... anyone. Nothing about having the right politics. The BBC interviewer just smiled indulgently and said, "I see".

        The neighbour's cat was meaowing between every remark I was making, this afternoon. "I know, I know", I told her, "I don't much like Boris Johnson either".
        Spot-on. Hitler went down well in a society, much like our own, where "passion" was prized over logical thought. In a post-factual and forgetful world, I hope we're not destined for repetition of the mistakes of history.

        Comment

        • Richard Barrett
          Guest
          • Jan 2016
          • 6259

          Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
          they are stuck with the idiot Corbyn
          This isn't really the kind of vocabulary with which to have a reasoned discussion, is it? As has been pointed out, JC was elected twice as leader, with an increased majority the second time. There's no question of the party being "stuck" with him. I presume the word "idiot" here signifies "person who doesn't subscribe to my opinion regarding Brexit", as it often does for remainers, which was and is exactly the problem for the remain campaign.

          Comment

          • muzzer
            Full Member
            • Nov 2013
            • 1194

            “Passion” is a long way towards subsuming reason completely. The demagogues and bad people are loving it. I struggle to think of what can be done, but voting for a Corbyn or Johnson government is most definitely not on my list of potential solutions.

            Comment

            • oddoneout
              Full Member
              • Nov 2015
              • 9366

              Originally posted by Maclintick View Post
              Spot-on. Hitler went down well in a society, much like our own, where "passion" was prized over logical thought. In a post-factual and forgetful world, I hope we're not destined for repetition of the mistakes of history.
              But wasn't he also saying what the people wanted to hear? And isn't that what is happening now? Passion alone isn't enough; if B Johnson was passionate about measures to combat climate change, especially those involving change of lifestyle, rather than Brexit, I can't see that going down well with those who are making the decisions.

              Comment

              • Jazzrook
                Full Member
                • Mar 2011
                • 3128

                Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
                For many people these days, politics seems to have become like show business. On the BBC lunchtime TV news today, a group of "the public" from Reading was being asked about the characteristics they would like to see in whichever candidate became leader of the Tory Party, and they were saying things like he had to have "charisma", be "passionate", and so on. In other words, qualities that could as easily have been ascribed to Hitler. Or Mao Ze Dong. Or Castro, Tito, Trotsky... anyone. Nothing about having the right politics. The BBC interviewer just smiled indulgently and said, "I see".

                The neighbour's cat was meaowing between every remark I was making, this afternoon. "I know, I know", I told her, "I don't much like Boris Johnson either".
                That BBC reporter(Nick Robinson) gave those Tory members of " the public" an easy ride.
                BBC news at the moment seems like a lengthy Political Broadcast on behalf of the Tory party.
                I also find it alarming how a group of rightwing, pro-hard Brexit commentators such as Tim Montgomery, Iain Dale, Alex Dean, Toby Young, Fraser Nelson, Julia Hartley-Brewer, Melanie Phillips, Isabel Oakeshott, Rachel Sylvester, Janet Daley & Claire Fox are given frequent opportunities to air their views on the BBC's political discussion programmes.

                JR
                Last edited by Jazzrook; 09-07-19, 08:31.

                Comment

                • MrGongGong
                  Full Member
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 18357

                  Originally posted by Richard Barrett View Post
                  This isn't really the kind of vocabulary with which to have a reasoned discussion, is it? As has been pointed out, JC was elected twice as leader, with an increased majority the second time. There's no question of the party being "stuck" with him. I presume the word "idiot" here signifies "person who doesn't subscribe to my opinion regarding Brexit", as it often does for remainers, which was and is exactly the problem for the remain campaign.
                  "Idiot" here signifies someone who, though elected by lots of people, is prepared to go through with something that will adversely effect those whom he claims to have empathy and concern for.

                  There isn't really a "resoned discussion" as one can't argue against those who take a "faith position".
                  THAT is part of the big problem IMV

                  Comment

                  • Joseph K
                    Banned
                    • Oct 2017
                    • 7765

                    Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
                    "Idiot" here signifies someone who, though elected by lots of people, is prepared to go through with something that will adversely effect those whom he claims to have empathy and concern for.

                    There isn't really a "resoned discussion" as one can't argue against those who take a "faith position".
                    THAT is part of the big problem IMV
                    It is not a 'faith position'. Corbyn is doing the best he can after being dealt a bad set of cards (Brexit).

                    A confession: I am still unsure of whether it is outside the EU or inside that would more prevent a Labour government from enacting their manifesto. But I am pretty sure the solution to honouring the referendum without damaging the country would be a soft Brexit.

                    Comment

                    • Serial_Apologist
                      Full Member
                      • Dec 2010
                      • 37928

                      Originally posted by Jazzrook View Post
                      That BBC reporter(Nick Robinson) gave those Tory members of " the public" an easy ride.
                      BBC news at the moment seems like a lengthy Political Broadcast on behalf of the Tory party.
                      I also find it alarming how a group of rightwing, pro-hard Brexit commentators such as Tim Montgomery, Alex Dean, Toby Young, Julia Hartley-Brewer, Isabel Oakeshott, Janet Daley & Claire Fox are given frequent opportunities to air their views on the BBC's political discussion programmes.

                      JR
                      Almost unbelievably right wing-slanted panel on AQ today - still, Dimbletoes had to be allowed a gentle valete from his programme, following what he, or we, have gone through, which was so much, as he spent a lot of time saying at the conclusion. Nothing like a farewell party surrounded by your friends and associates.

                      Comment

                      • Jazzrook
                        Full Member
                        • Mar 2011
                        • 3128

                        Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
                        Almost unbelievably right wing-slanted panel on AQ today - still, Dimbletoes had to be allowed a gentle valete from his programme, following what he, or we, have gone through, which was so much, as he spent a lot of time saying at the conclusion. Nothing like a farewell party surrounded by your friends and associates.
                        Yes, the AQ panel did have a strong rightwing bias.
                        I should have included Amanda Platell in my list of culprits!

                        JR

                        Comment

                        • Maclintick
                          Full Member
                          • Jan 2012
                          • 1085

                          Originally posted by Jazzrook View Post
                          Yes, the AQ panel did have a strong rightwing bias.
                          I should have included Amanda Platell in my list of culprits!

                          JR
                          I'd also have added Iain Dale, Camilla Tominey & Tim Stanley -- who is accorded such reverence in W1A that he's even been given a slot on "Thought for The Day" -- I nearly choked on my cornflakes. Hope we'll have seen the last of Andrew Neil & Portillo soon...

                          Comment

                          • MrGongGong
                            Full Member
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 18357

                            Originally posted by Joseph K View Post
                            It is not a 'faith position'. Corbyn is doing the best he can after being dealt a bad set of cards (Brexit).

                            A confession: I am still unsure of whether it is outside the EU or inside that would more prevent a Labour government from enacting their manifesto. But I am pretty sure the solution to honouring the referendum without damaging the country would be a soft Brexit.
                            I wasn't suggesting that JC was taking a faith position but he IS complicit in the whole Brexit nonsense. He did vote for triggering article 50 and he didn't oppose the vote in the first place...

                            "honouring the referendum without damaging the country"

                            Known as the "Vegan Butcher Option"
                            Last edited by MrGongGong; 29-06-19, 17:41.

                            Comment

                            • Joseph K
                              Banned
                              • Oct 2017
                              • 7765

                              Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
                              I wasn't suggesting that JC was taking a faith position but he IS complicit in the whole Brexit nonsense. He did vote for triggering article 50 and he didn't oppose the vote in the first place...

                              "honouring the referendum without damaging the country"

                              Known as the "Vegan Butcher Option"
                              And yet all the remainer 'centrists' would damage the country through austerity anyway. Like I said before, there is no easy option; just damage - limitation. The EU seems to implement austerity even if a nation votes against it.

                              Comment

                              • teamsaint
                                Full Member
                                • Nov 2010
                                • 25239

                                Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
                                I wasn't suggesting that JC was taking a faith position but he IS complicit in the whole Brexit nonsense. He did vote for triggering article 50 and he didn't oppose the vote in the first place...

                                "honouring the referendum without damaging the country"

                                Known as the "Vegan Butcher Option"
                                Well, seeing him as " complicit" is a valid view, but the truth about the whole thing us very complex. The Lib Dems had a referendum in their 2010 manifesto. Blair was guilty of recklessness in his approach to the A8 countries, IMO the most significant action in creating this whole situation.

                                And Labour have pushed , in the main, for the softest possible Brexit, via the six tests.
                                I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

                                I am not a number, I am a free man.

                                Comment

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