The BBC 1 'Prime Minister' debate

[Frances_iom]

Is this some kind of stress test ?
What happens when a total lying idiot takes power ?

I think the wheels are about to fall off the bus - was he drunk?

[MrGongGong]

I think the wheels are about to fall off the bus - was he drunk?

I've been waiting for the return of The Fast Show

[Maclintick]

For once I agree with Max Hastings:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/24/boris-johnson-prime-minister-tory-party-britain

JR

Hastings is spot-on. As is on the record, Johnson is demonstrably a lying, mendacious clown who will probably be the next Prime Minister, God help us. Leaving aside the ludicrous posturings of those who would re-run Marxist critiques belonging to the last century, who, and what are we who wish to oppose the current global neo-liberal consensus and reject the "dog-whistling" accomplices of far-right extremism, Farage, Johnson et al, to embrace, if there is to be any hope for the future ? ( answer: not Jeremy)

[Richard Barrett]

those who would re-run Marxist critiques belonging to the last century

I wonder what exactly is so "last century" about a Marxist critique of capitalism? I suspect you don't think it held much water in the twentieth century either, am I right?

[Maclintick]

I wonder what exactly is so "last century" about a Marxist critique of capitalism? I suspect you don't think it held much water in the twentieth century either, am I right?

As 20th cent turned out -- yes, unfortunately, IMV, in that there were societal experiments along Marxist principles in communist societies espousing centrally planned economies which turned out poorly, as they are currently doing in Venezuela. Marxian apologists will aver that the putatively egalitarian ideals of these patriarchal societies, whether Marxist-Leninist, Castro-ist, Maoist, Jong-Un-ist, Maduro-ist, etc -- & yes, it's always men who are the "swinging dicks" in these big-time utopias -- were somehow perverted/derailed by wicked capitalists/defective human nature/other unspecified but elusive forces. Name me a single socialist utopia which has, or has ever had, a female leader ?

[Richard Barrett]

As 20th cent turned out -- yes, unfortunately, IMV, in that there were societal experiments along Marxist principles in communist societies espousing centrally planned economies which turned out poorly, as they are currently doing in Venezuela.

Since you mentioned it, actually the "human nature" argument is one never used by Marxists, since it clearly refers to something that isn't as static or predetermined as conservatives would have everyone believe. But you're shifting the goalposts here. Your criticism of Jeremy Corbyn referred to his "Marxist critique of capitalism" being outmoded, and when I remarked that you probably didn't think it was up to much in the twentieth century either, you then change the subject to twentieth-century "societal experiments along [alleged] Marxist principles", adding a few caricatures of what you imagine "Marxian apologists" might say about them, rather than saying anything substantive about what you think is so wrong or inaccurate about the Marxist critique of capitalism. That's a bit like saying that because the Renaissance popes were greedy and murderous that the teachings on peace and charity attributed to Jesus shouldn't be taken seriously.

[Stunsworth]

I think the wheels are about to fall off the bus - was he drunk?

Those wine boxes he paints don’t empty themselves you know.

[LMcD]

I think the wheels are about to fall off the bus - was he drunk?

The thought in his head - there's just the one: 'BJ for PM' - goes round and round …..

[Stanfordian]

The thought in his head - there's just the one: 'BJ for PM' - goes round and round …..

It's hard to imagine him leading high level negotiations. Maybe he'd drink the wine bottles just prior to the interview.

Trump and Johnson - the mind boggles.

Having said all that I'm now convinced that the police being called out to Johnson and his girlfriend was a set up.

[Maclintick]

Since you mentioned it, actually the "human nature" argument is one never used by Marxists, since it clearly refers to something that isn't as static or predetermined as conservatives would have everyone believe. But you're shifting the goalposts here. Your criticism of Jeremy Corbyn referred to his "Marxist critique of capitalism" being outmoded, and when I remarked that you probably didn't think it was up to much in the twentieth century either, you then change the subject to twentieth-century "societal experiments along [alleged] Marxist principles", adding a few caricatures of what you imagine "Marxian apologists" might say about them, rather than saying anything substantive about what you think is so wrong or inaccurate about the Marxist critique of capitalism. That's a bit like saying that because the Renaissance popes were greedy and murderous that the teachings on peace and charity attributed to Jesus shouldn't be taken seriously.

On "human nature" I believe Marx was quite a fan of Darwin, and accepted its evolutionary mutability -- although I'm not sure he could have understood the timescales involved. What does current Marxist analysis say about "class struggle" in the UK in 2019 ? Who are to be defined as the "bourgeoisie" and the "proletariat". Who are the capitalists ? Where are they lurking ? Is an RMT Tube driver on £70K more proletarian than a filthy capitalist self-employed "bourgeois" hairdresser on half that amount ? Is it anyone who's self-employed and works in the gig economy ? Not sure what KM would say that could usefully be applied as an analytical tool for critiquing the global economy, let alone overthrowing it -- unless it involved the state wresting total control as in...oh no, been there, done that.

As it happens, I am in favour of the UK state taking our national railways back into public ownership, capping energy prices, and introducing rent controls in the private housing market, among other measures which the Tory press would excoriate. Does this make me a Marxist, or at the very least a creeping socialist fellow-traveller ?

[Stunsworth]

Having said all that I'm now convinced that the police being called out to Johnson and his girlfriend was a set up.

Multiple neighbours have reported they heard the argument, I find it difficult to imagine they coordinated their responses. Also police advice is to call them in those kinds of circumstances.

I find the fact that Johnson refuses to say when the 'recent' photograph was taken an indication that an old photo was released to attempt to hoodwink the public. I think he's arrogant enough to believe the photo would stem any enquiries.

[Joseph K]

On "human nature" I believe Marx was quite a fan of Darwin, and accepted its evolutionary mutability -- although I'm not sure he could have understood the timescales involved. What does current Marxist analysis say about "class struggle" in the UK in 2019 ? Who are to be defined as the "bourgeoisie" and the "proletariat". Who are the capitalists ? Where are they lurking ? Is an RMT Tube driver on £70K more proletarian than a filthy capitalist self-employed "bourgeois" hairdresser on half that amount ? Is it anyone who's self-employed and works in the gig economy ? Not sure what KM would say that could usefully be applied as an analytical tool for critiquing the global economy, let alone overthrowing it -- unless it involved the state wresting total control as in...oh no, been there, done that.

As it happens, I am in favour of the UK state taking our national railways back into public ownership, capping energy prices, and introducing rent controls in the private housing market, among other measures which the Tory press would excoriate. Does this make me a Marxist, or at the very least a creeping socialist fellow-traveller ?

It's not just the UK 2019 - it was always the case that Marxist analysis didn't reflect the totality of the economy. The Marxist class analysis is based around the relationship to the means of production - those who work and produce (proletariat) and those who own (bourgeoisie).

We've had similar discussions before about this, so I'll just leave this here -

While the principle of radical egalitarianism may appear unassailable in itself, problems arise out of the way in which it gets articulated with other spheres of action. The definition of social groups is always contested, for example. While multiculturalism can accommodate the ideal of equality between most self-identified social groups, the one persistent divide is that of class. This is so because class is the foundational inequality necessary for the reproduction of capitalism. So the answer of existing political power is either to deny that class exists, or to say that the category is so confusing and complicated (as if the other categories like race and gender are not) as to be analytically useless. In this way the question of class gets evaded, denied or ignored, whether it be in hegemonic intellectual constructions of the world (in, say, the field of economics) or in practical politics... ....Clearly, class identities, like racial identities are multiple and overlapping. I work as a labourer but have a pension fund that invests in the stock market and I own a house that I am improving with sweat equity and which I intend to sell for speculative gain. Does that make the concept of class incoherent? Class is a role, not a label that attaches to persons. We play multiple roles all the time. But we do not say because most of us play the roles of both car drivers and pedestrians that it is impossible to plan a city around an analysis of relations between drivers and pedestrians. The role of the capitalist is to use money to command the labour or the assets of others and to use that command to make a profit, to accumulate capital and thereby augment personal command over wealth and power. The relation between the roles of capital and labour need to be confronted and regulated even within capitalism...

- David Harvey

Also worth reading is this: https://www.theguardian.com/news/201...nist-manifesto


… where Yanis Varoufakis points out the contemporary relevance of the Communist Manifesto.

[Richard Barrett]

On "human nature" I believe Marx was quite a fan of Darwin, and accepted its evolutionary mutability -- although I'm not sure he could have understood the timescales involved.

Actually, attributing "human nature" to evolutionary factors is something much beloved of conservatives since it "proves" that people are the slaves of their genes, whereas actually the mutability of human nature can be seen readily in the findings of palaeoanthropologists, taking place on a more "human" timescale. For the rest I think Joseph's links ought to satisfy your curiosity about current Marxist thinking, and, given the policies you enumerate at the end of your post I wonder why you find the current Labour party so unpalatable since it's the only one that's committed to (I think) all of them!

[Dave2002]

As it happens, I am in favour of the UK state taking our national railways back into public ownership, capping energy prices, and introducing rent controls in the private housing market, among other measures which the Tory press would excoriate. Does this make me a Marxist, or at the very least a creeping socialist fellow-traveller ?

Rent controls can be very problematic, and perhaps depend on local situations. In towns and cities with universities, where there are many students who rent, lack of rent controls may mean that if student grants or loans go up that the rents simply follow suit, as the "greedy" landlords just put up their prices. On the other hand some tenants are appalling, and trash properties in which they live, which is hardly an incentive for landlords to offer housing, or to maintain properties adequately. Then, of course there are really poor landlords who don't maintain their properties. It's all very tricky.

In the US there are condos (condominiums) which are more like housing estates where homes and flats (apartments) are available for rent. These seem to me to have enormous advantages over the private rental market in the UK, since many aspects are done so much better. It is possible to have short term rents (e.g. 30 days), and maintenance and accounting issues can be well managed. Perhaps we were just lucky with our experiences, but compared with the UK, living in condos was great for renting. Economies of scale really pay off, I think.

You mention the UK state taking national railways back into public ownership. Surely if the state did that it would simply contract out most of the functions back to private companies? On the East Coast mainline, for example, most of the operations in the last few years have been done by the same people (as far as I can tell) - same staff on the trains, yet the trains get repainted and presumably some aspects of operations are in theory directly accountable to government departments. Think First, Virgin, LNER etc.

What would you like to see - BJ welcoming you on to each train? No - he wouldn't do it - but what about JC? I don't think so. [On the other hand, BJ might like to drive the train as an alternative to painting carboard box buses!]

[Dave2002]

Actually, attributing "human nature" to evolutionary factors is something much beloved of conservatives since it "proves" that people are the slaves of their genes, whereas actually the mutability of human nature can be seen readily in the findings of palaeoanthropologists, taking place on a more "human" timescale. For the rest I think Joseph's links ought to satisfy your curiosity about current Marxist thinking, and, given the policies you enumerate at the end of your post I wonder why you find the current Labour party so unpalatable since it's the only one that's committed to (I think) all of them!

Marxism ....

I found a composer Karl Marx, who amongst other things, wrote a piece for alto recorder - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Marx_(composer)