Compassion

[Richard Tarleton]

You obviously don't remember canned London fog.

I dimly remember we discovered that my late great aunt had been a neighbour of yours, S_A - I think it was you - she lived at 46 Redcliffe Road SW10 for 30 years after the war? She was a doctor and worked in public health, for Westminster City Council (she qualified at the Royal Free in the 1920s and had been a major in the RAMC during WW2) so she knew all about smog. Though yes, my regular stays with her only began in the later 1950s, after the Clean Air Act..... I see canned air is very much a thing today....http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/201...ut-of-thin-air

[Serial_Apologist]

I dimly remember we discovered that my late great aunt had been a neighbour of yours, S_A - I think it was you - she lived at 46 Redcliffe Road SW10 for 30 years after the war? She was a doctor and worked in public health, for Westminster City Council (she qualified at the Royal Free in the 1920s and had been a major in the RAMC during WW2) so she knew all about smog. Though yes, my regular stays with her only began in the later 1950s, after the Clean Air Act..... I see canned air is very much a thing today....http://www.bbc.com/capital/story/201...ut-of-thin-air

Good grief Richard - I hadn't mentioned Redcliffe Gardens since the much-missed Welsh Anna was posting on this forum!

[Boilk]

... London tap water is fine and we use it all the time. But the mineral waters I've mentioned above have particular tastes and go specially well with food. And they're slightly fizzy, too - which I like.

I've noticed (from brushing teeth upstairs) that London water, although certainly bearable, has a distinctive taste. It's noticeable for me because the downstairs kitchen sink has a ceramic water filter underneath stopping 95% of gunk from getting any further. It's about £50 and gets replaced roughly every 12 months, so still a massive saving on bottled water, and no plastic waste.

[Anastasius]

So in seven pages we get from 'compassion' to water filters. Do all the threads here go the same way ?

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

So in seven pages we get from 'compassion' to water filters. Do all the threads here go the same way ?

Well - you have to make allowances ...

[LMcD]

So in seven pages we get from 'compassion' to water filters. Do all the threads here go the same way ?

Not all, but quite a few seem to! I'd like to believe that this reflects well on contributors.

[Richard Tarleton]

To get back on thread, -ish....

.....while at the same time defending the Soviet Union's nationalisation of business and land as gains from an international(ist) perspective, the securing of which, defined according to socialist principles, depended on management and running bottom-up, not top-down, as - we would argue - history has proved.

Are you saying the Soviet Union's collectivisation of land went well, S_A? Deaths of 40 million people by famine in 1932-3? Likewise 45 million in China 1958-62?

Since one is treading on eggshells as regards terminology here , I'm not sure where all this sits in the socialism-compassion spectrum, or Venn diagram, or whatever - if for example Stalin wasn't socialist at all, as you appear to be saying.....

Which leads me to ask Bryn

A fair few have gained leadership roles in counties labelling themselves as socialist.

- can you give one or two examples either way, perhaps - of ones that have wrongly labelled themselves socialist, and ones which really were/are?

Just seeking clarification - we might understand the terms of reference differently

[Richard Barrett]

if for example Stalin wasn't socialist at all, as you appear to be saying...

Clearly he wasn't. He was an unscrupulous and opportunistic Party operative who systematically accrued power around himself so as to put himself in a position of supreme authority as soon as Lenin was out of the way. Nothing socialist about any of that!

[Old Grumpy]

Not all, but quite a few seem to! I'd like to believe that this reflects well on contributors.

I personally see no problem with that at all. The discussion of water filters arose as a result of an enquiry regarding the wording of one of the questions in the Political Compass Test, which was quite legitimately introduced to the thread at an early stage.

OG

[Richard Tarleton]

Clearly he wasn't. He was an unscrupulous and opportunistic Party operative who systematically accrued power around himself so as to put himself in a position of supreme authority as soon as Lenin was out of the way. Nothing socialist about any of that!

Was Lenin a compassionate socialist?

(I studied 19th and 20th century Russian history to degree level, in particular never missing Harry Willett's lecture series, and have continued to read around it, just trying to understand other people's understandings on this forum )

[Sir Velo]

Was Lenin a compassionate socialist?

Never struck me that way I have to say.

I think Lenin, as with other ideologues, was motivated by the big idea. He perceived the need to completely refashion society, and to hell with any individual that got in the way of that objective. The collective idea first; the individual a long way down the list of priorities. As far from a libertarian as you could get. "Under Western Eyes" provides a fine critique of the revolutionary mindset.

[Serial_Apologist]

Are you saying the Soviet Union's collectivisation of land went well, S_A? Deaths of 40 million people by famine in 1932-3? Likewise 45 million in China 1958-62?

Since one is treading on eggshells as regards terminology here , I'm not sure where all this sits in the socialism-compassion spectrum, or Venn diagram, or whatever - if for example Stalin wasn't socialist at all, as you appear to be saying.....

Richard's reply will suffice, but it's odd how us socialists are always being expected to account for Stalin!

[Richard Tarleton]

Richard's reply will suffice, but it's odd how us socialists are always being expected to account for Stalin!

But where did Stalin come from? (it's OK, I know...).....Mao Zedong.....

I quite understand how socialists might hope for better outcomes, but it's surely a point that revolutions (not just socialist/communist ones, I hasten to say) do generally seem to end up with corrupt, autocratic self-serving elites surrounding themselves with the trappings of power and repression, ruling out the possibility of change, while the people suffer all sorts of privations, censorship and worse.... I'm still waiting for an example of a socialist regime that really did/has delivered compassionate outcomes (to refer back to the OP's question, and Richard's response to same) - apart from the ones which have existed within the framework of bourgeois democracy, such as in Scandinavian countries....

[Joseph K]

(Orthodox) Marxists would probably say what we think of as 'socialist regimes' are in fact state capitalist, and point out the fact that Russia, for example, was already corrupt and autocratic and mostly still feudal, i.e. it didn't fulfil the criteria Marx laid out for a successful socialist revolution.

But still, countries like Cuba have their positive aspects, high literacy, low infant mortality, for example. And the USSR introduced positive changes before Stalin, e.g. homosexuality was decriminalised IIRC (and then recriminalized under Stalin).

Capitalism also isn't entirely famine-free...

[Conchis]

Was Lenin a compassionate socialist?

(I studied 19th and 20th century Russian history to degree level, in particular never missing Harry Willett's lecture series, and have continued to read around it, just trying to understand other people's understandings on this forum )

The impression I always got was that Lenin was obsessive about socialism in the way that certain athletes are obsessive about their chosen sport.

He was 100% dedicated to the overthrow of Russia's imperialist government and to the creation of a new socialist world order - not just for Russia, either.

He ate, slept, drank and breathed socialism and I doubt he ever questioned its as 'the way forward.'

Patrick Stewart's portrayal of Lenin in the Fall Of Eagles television series is definitive, in my view:

https://youtu.be/HP7mzgf0xA8