Can Music Be Gendered?

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  • Serial_Apologist
    Full Member
    • Dec 2010
    • 37595

    Can Music Be Gendered?

    Sunday 10 March - 5pm: The Listening Service

    Tom Service asks if masculine and feminine are discernible qualities in music. And how have these concepts had an impact on music over the centuries?

    This was a question I asked on the forum when I was still a neophyte here. As the question was in the context of classical music, or so I thought, I didn't raise the issue of female versus male expression, directly applied in singing or playing instruments, or of whether feminine qualities exist in musics outside the Euroclassical tradition, eg in pop, rock and jazz-related genres, only that of style. In terms of music conceived on score I put myself at a disadvantage, and I was severely castigated for suggesting such a thing (and told off! ), and asked to produce examples of music by women composers and state categorically what it was that was specifically feminine in them. Had I been thinking more broadly I could have cited Miles Davis as thought of as one who, in contrast to Dizzy Gillespie, elected to express a less aggressive approach to jazz in terms of choice of materials and evolving a more sensitive, interactive way, rather than the impositional one favoured on the whole in jazz up to the 1950s - Lester Young being possibly his only predecessor in this regard, though others were on the same track at the time.

    The of coure there were the feminist rock and punk bands of the late 70s who felt they should have a fair crack of the whip by excluding men.

    It will be interesting to hear what the programme has to say on the subject.
  • Bryn
    Banned
    • Mar 2007
    • 24688

    #2
    Hmm. If there is a difference to be determined re. scored music, perhaps some enterprising person, of either gender, can hone the identifying factors into an app. Then we could run the Bach Cello Suites through it to know for sure whether Martin Jarvis was onto something or not.

    Comment

    • vinteuil
      Full Member
      • Nov 2010
      • 12793

      #3
      .

      ... all very 'binary' here.

      Surprised you're allowed to get away with it...




      .

      Comment

      • MrGongGong
        Full Member
        • Nov 2010
        • 18357

        #4

        Comment

        • teamsaint
          Full Member
          • Nov 2010
          • 25195

          #5
          Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
          Sunday 10 March - 5pm: The Listening Service

          Tom Service asks if masculine and feminine are discernible qualities in music. And how have these concepts had an impact on music over the centuries?

          The of coure there were the feminist rock and punk bands of the late 70s who felt they should have a fair crack of the whip by excluding men.

          It will be interesting to hear what the programme has to say on the subject.

          Two of the most visible and foremost feminist punk bands, the Slits and the Raincoats both used male musicians. And although their style of music was undoubtedly informed and influenced by their political views, ( eg with reference to looser structures, and a post rock sensibility,) I doubt very much that in a blind test one could ascertain anything gendered about the music.
          I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

          I am not a number, I am a free man.

          Comment

          • Richard Tarleton

            #6
            Caroline Criado-Perez's new book "Invisible Women - Exposing Data Bias in a World Designed for Men" is reviewed in today's Sunday Times, by Christina Patterson. It mentions that "Blind auditions at the New York Philharmonic Orchestra have increased the percentage of women members from 0% to 45%".

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            • Richard Barrett
              Guest
              • Jan 2016
              • 6259

              #7
              Musical style is (to use the Freudian term) overdetermined, isn't it? I mean it's the result of many influences, including the composer's gender, any one of which could be a determining factor. So the answer to S_A's question is: there's some music which probably might be described as gendered, when that aspect outweighs any others, but I don't think this is likely to be true of more than a few special cases. Of course, it has become clearer in recent years that people are often less unambiguously gendered than used to be the consensus, and maybe musical composition is one of those things that's been pointing unnoticed in this direction for a very long time.

              Comment

              • doversoul1
                Ex Member
                • Dec 2010
                • 7132

                #8
                Originally posted by Richard Tarleton View Post
                Caroline Criado-Perez's new book "Invisible Women - Exposing Data Bias in a World Designed for Men" is reviewed in today's Sunday Times, by Christina Patterson. It mentions that "Blind auditions at the New York Philharmonic Orchestra have increased the percentage of women members from 0% to 45%".
                The Guardian's review
                From the ‘one-size-fits-men’ approach to smartphone design to the medical trials that are putting women’s lives at risk … this book uses data like a laser

                Comment

                • Ein Heldenleben
                  Full Member
                  • Apr 2014
                  • 6751

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
                  Sunday 10 March - 5pm: The Listening Service

                  Tom Service asks if masculine and feminine are discernible qualities in music. And how have these concepts had an impact on music over the centuries?

                  This was a question I asked on the forum when I was still a neophyte here. As the question was in the context of classical music, or so I thought, I didn't raise the issue of female versus male expression, directly applied in singing or playing instruments, or of whether feminine qualities exist in musics outside the Euroclassical tradition, eg in pop, rock and jazz-related genres, only that of style. In terms of music conceived on score I put myself at a disadvantage, and I was severely castigated for suggesting such a thing (and told off! ), and asked to produce examples of music by women composers and state categorically what it was that was specifically feminine in them. Had I been thinking more broadly I could have cited Miles Davis as thought of as one who, in contrast to Dizzy Gillespie, elected to express a less aggressive approach to jazz in terms of choice of materials and evolving a more sensitive, interactive way, rather than the impositional one favoured on the whole in jazz up to the 1950s - Lester Young being possibly his only predecessor in this regard, though others were on the same track at the time.

                  The of coure there were the feminist rock and punk bands of the late 70s who felt they should have a fair crack of the whip by excluding men.

                  It will be interesting to hear what the programme has to say on the subject.
                  I think it all depends what you mean by masculine / feminine . But on Miles Davis - his music might be "feminine " in character but as an individual he was exceptionally aggressive with a notoriously short temper. Dizzy always came across as the most gentle of people . Dizzy vastly outclassed Miles in technique which is partly why his playing is virtuosic and hard - driven . Dizzy was one of the great nurturers of jazz talent . Miles played with all the greats and was hugely respected but the word nurturing isn't the first to spring to mind.

                  Comment

                  • ferneyhoughgeliebte
                    Gone fishin'
                    • Sep 2011
                    • 30163

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Heldenleben View Post
                    I think it all depends what you mean by masculine / feminine.
                    - in what sense, for example, is Miles' work "feminine", and are "exceptional aggressive[ness]" and "short-temper[ed]" characteristically "masculine"?

                    It's precisely because I believe that such aspects of personality are not gender-exclusive (or even "gender associated") that I believe that Music cannot be gendered in any meaningful way.


                    And I'll thump anyone who disagrees.
                    [FONT=Comic Sans MS][I][B]Numquam Satis![/B][/I][/FONT]

                    Comment

                    • cloughie
                      Full Member
                      • Dec 2011
                      • 22115

                      #11
                      Originally posted by ferneyhoughgeliebte View Post
                      - in what sense, for example, is Miles' work "feminine", and are "exceptional aggressive[ness]" and "short-temper[ed]" characteristically "masculine"?

                      It's precisely because I believe that such aspects of personality are not gender-exclusive (or even "gender associated") that I believe that Music cannot be gendered in any meaningful way.


                      And I'll thump anyone who disagrees.
                      Well ‘Bitches Brew’ has a feminine title!

                      Comment

                      • Serial_Apologist
                        Full Member
                        • Dec 2010
                        • 37595

                        #12
                        Originally posted by cloughie View Post
                        Well ‘Bitches Brew’ has a feminine title!


                        When I were a politico most feminists I encountered argued that by dint of the competition-based systems devised by men being in charge over millennia, women's witness to the resulting disasters and wars made them more amenable to opposing viewpoints and co-operative than men. They also argued that were more women to break through the glass ceiling and be represented on boards of directorships, the male-determined business model based on competitiveness at the expense of consideration for more humane considerations such as taking time to think longterm over negative consequences of impulsive decision-making, family and home life would have to change. I accepted these principles at the time, and there have emerged some female bosses (Anita Roddick) who obtain to them, though generally I welcome women in top positions of the biggest conglomerates as a way of demonstrating that capitalism in most instances has little time for philanthropists still at the building stage in their global ambitions, and this truth is a hard lesson for feminists who argue men to be "the main enemy" not class to learn.

                        The situation in jazz has been changing, but I remember times when only a tiny minority of audiences were comprised of women, and I remember Miles Davis relating how Wayne Shorter had advised him as to how to make music that would draw women into appreciating jazz. Miles's legendarily bad treatment of women calls to mind a comment made by Krishnamurti to the effect that while one can make an art out of a particular activity (eg music) while leaving out the rest of ones life, the consequence of a more "spiritual" approach to life should be to make the whole of living into an art form. Reading across, one might think some "platforms" more propitious to challenging the dominant male perspective than business, if the latter has been the primary model shaping people's notions of "success" on the whole, and how to "get" it, and that music might be one place where this can happen.

                        While it would seem axiomatic that the resulting music would be different and critics would not have recourse to the descriptive words of vindication which were quoted by Tom Service in the programme, this would not imply that women by nature compose or by natural inclination perform or listen to music that is different from the models handed down by masculine hegemony,however.
                        Last edited by Serial_Apologist; 11-03-19, 16:32.

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