Children’s Reading

[Dave2002]

Going off the topic a bit:
Can ferneyhoughgeliebte or any other experts on the forum explain the difference between clever composition and creative composition? Or maybe clever performance and creative performance?

Mmmmmm. You start a thread, and now you want to take it OT!

Why not start a new one?

[doversoul1]

Mmmmmm. You start a thread, and now you want to take it OT!

Why not start a new one?

Because the quality of books/writing can be talked about in the same way as cpmposition, I think by putting my point into musical terms, which I can't do, it will make it clearer for many members here.

[greenilex]

I think it’s worthwhile considering creating/decoding in terms of writing/reading.

Often small children enjoy writing individual letters before they want to decode words in a book. The satisfaction of mastering the pencil can easily turn into strings of sounds and meaningful names.

Very small people can read the books they themselves have produced. All this should happen alongside listening with enjoyment to increasingly complex stories and rhymes, and “reading” text they already know by heart. Graded reading schemes are more for the teacher’s convenience than for encouraging creativity.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Going off the topic a bit:
Can ferneyhoughgeliebte or any other experts on the forum explain the difference between clever composition and creative composition? Or maybe clever performance and creative performance?

Not really. I'd look at the context - "composing" is "putting together", so it's a "creative" act (regardless of whether it's any good, something is still being "created") and therefore "creative composition" might be regarded as a tautology. "Clever" suggests some imaginative and/or individual features; so a more appreciative comment might have been implied - or, given that "clever" is often used as a polite way of suggesting "smart alec", perhaps someone using the expression "clever composition" (or performance) was intending to suggest something more critical.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Because the quality of books/writing can be talked about in the same way as cpmposition, I think by putting my point into musical terms, which I can't do, it will make it clearer for many members here.

I hope what I've just written helps ( ) - but you're right: "composition" isn't an exclusively Musical term. In my pre-"O"-Level English lessons, we had exercises in "Comprehension" (reading a previously unseen passage and answering questions to show we'd understood it correctly) and "Composition" (using techniques and vocabulary we'd encountered in our reading to create new pieces of imaginative prose or poetry). And the composition of a painting is an essential aspect of Art studies.

[doversoul1]

I hope what I've just written helps ( ) - but you're right: "composition" isn't an exclusively Musical term. In my pre-"O"-Level English lessons, we had exercises in "Comprehension" (reading a previously unseen passage and answering questions to show we'd understood it correctly) and "Composition" (using techniques and vocabulary we'd encountered in our reading to create new pieces of imaginative prose or poetry). And the composition of a painting is an essential aspect of Art studies.

I used ‘creative’ to mean ‘characterised by originality of thoughts or inventiveness, having or showing imagination (Collins English Dictionary).

I bet these researchers have never heard of John Burningham or Allan and Janet Ahlberg.

[ardcarp]

It is fascinating to watch a 'reading ready' [horrible phrase] infant acquire the ability to read. Phonics get them started, but look-and-say takes over so quickly, it's almost a miracle. Two things militate against this happening:

1. No parental talking or reading from (or even before?) birth
2. The infant's brain being wired up a bit 'differently'

In the latter case a lot more parental and specialist input is needed.

I remember in the 1970s (when Mrs A taught nippers) there was a reading test(the Schonell Test?) which consisted of words taken completely out of context. (I seem to remember 'bun' and 'frog'.) The idea was to exclude the advantage of 'intelligence'. From how far down the list a child got, one was supposed to be able to calculate a 'reading age'. Many kids read 'disposal' as 'dis-possal' ! Clearly hopeless readers at the age of 7.

I also remember another thing that got Mrs A. very annoyed. There was some system whereby the text of a child's book could be put through a process which would determine its readability for certain ages of child. (It was something to do with counting the number of syllables and/or the length of sentences.) The damaging thing was that school or classroom libraries were then organised along these lines, as if to say 'that book's for 10-year-olds and you're only 8' or vice-versa.

The world of education has always become obsessed with 'fashions of the moment'. One of my own g-kids was apparently taught that to write well one had to begin sentences with 'a frontal adverbial'. Dangerously the boat heeled over. Frantically the crew baled. Luckily they made it to shore. Had the proponent of this particular literary style ever read a good book?

Going off-piste, I was forced to watch the final of Child Genius on Channel 4 tonight. Aaaarrrgghhh! Fortunately words fail me.

[MrGongGong]

I bet these researchers have never heard of John Burningham or Allan and Janet Ahlberg.

Does that make me a snob ? (I assume that EVERYONE has read Burglar Bill )

[doversoul1]

Does that make me a snob ? (I assume that EVERYONE has read Burglar Bill )

Thank you for reminding me (that I forgot to say that ).

And Funny Bones.

[ardcarp]

Probably the wackiest kids' book ever: How Tom Beat Captain Najork and His Hired Sportsmen

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Beat-Captain-Najork-Hired-Sportsmen/dp/1567923224

[MrGongGong]

This is essential IMV

http://www.ivorypress.com/en/product/mud-book-how-to-make-pies-and-cakes/

[Bryn]

This is essential IMV

http://www.ivorypress.com/en/product...ies-and-cakes/

Good call. Books Please have it at a not unreasonable price.

https://booksplea.se/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=9332422&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIyJuc2rTk4AIVAZ3tCh2Szw4YEAQYAyABEgLWe_D_BwE

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

It is fascinating to watch a 'reading ready' [horrible phrase] infant acquire the ability to read. Phonics get them started, but look-and-say takes over so quickly, it's almost a miracle. Two things militate against this happening:

1. No parental talking or reading from (or even before?) birth
2. The infant's brain being wired up a bit 'differently'

In the latter case a lot more parental and specialist input is needed.

This is a really good general study of literacy and associated problems:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Proust-Squid-Story-Science-Reading/dp/1848310307

... I found it utterly fascinating and very readable - even though I was still not entirely sure (read "utterly baffled") about the choice of title.

The problems Mrs A encountered are far from rare, unfortunately. Different children respond to a wide range of different ways of teaching reading - and LEAs do (?did?) have a habit of picking one Reading Scheme and enforcing it upon all teachers and their kids - and that "you can't read this because you're not as old as the reading age suggestion" is infuriatingly common (especially if a teacher isn't fully trained in literacy teaching skills, and is just following the lesson plan devised by the LEA). A far cry from my own Primary School headteacher who would make it seem a treat for a kid to read a book that looked a bit "old" for them.

[eighthobstruction]

....Richard Scarry : Busy Busy World top place in our house....

[gradus]

Child illiteracy was, maybe still is (it's a few years since I was up to date with the numbers) a shocking problem in one or two of our local primary schools and I always felt it disgraceful that we could 'educate' so many children so badly that they still couldn't read properly when starting secondary education. I was told that some of the worst performing schools locally showed little or no interest in offers of help with the problem from charities expressly aiming to assist with the problem. I don't understand how head teachers could possibly resist an offer of help with something so important.
This isn't tittle tattle but first-hand reporting of what happened.