Children’s Reading

[doversoul1]

I found this absolutely horrifying, as well as embarrassing.

Renaissance UK, which carried out the research, uses a “readability formula” to conduct its research, analysing average sentence and word length, and word difficulty level, to pinpoint a text’s complexity
[…]
Renaissance attributes the high level for Mr Greedy to Hargreaves’ “creative use of slightly unusual words and his habit of stringing them together in long sentences”, giving the example: “Over on the other side of the table stood the source of that delicious smell. A huge enormous gigantic colossal plate, and on the plate huge enormous gigantic colossal sausages the size of pillows, and huge enormous gigantic colossal potatoes the size of beach balls, and huge enormous gigantic colossal peas the size of cabbages.”https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...ing-complexity


What is the world feeding the mind and the brain of children with? Or am I being a snob?

[MrGongGong]

Not really to do with reading
BUT

I'm very wary of the assumption of "levels" in education.
Both from the experience as a parent of someone with Asperger's and experience of working with music in many educational contexts.

I remember finishing a session in a Birmingham primary school where we left two words written on the board that had come up during the process of making music.
Which were

Klangfarbenmelodie

and

Synesthesia

Both of which would be deemed far too "complex" for 8-year-olds!

But, while composing a piece of music that involved people passing sounds to each other in turn the cellist I was working with (from a well-known ensemble ) said that as he was German he knew a special word for that.
Later on
One of the children asked what the music we made smelt like

[Pulcinella]

I found this absolutely horrifying, as well as embarrassing.

Renaissance UK, which carried out the research, uses a “readability formula” to conduct its research, analysing average sentence and word length, and word difficulty level, to pinpoint a text’s complexity
[…]
Renaissance attributes the high level for Mr Greedy to Hargreaves’ “creative use of slightly unusual words and his habit of stringing them together in long sentences”, giving the example: “Over on the other side of the table stood the source of that delicious smell. A huge enormous gigantic colossal plate, and on the plate huge enormous gigantic colossal sausages the size of pillows, and huge enormous gigantic colossal potatoes the size of beach balls, and huge enormous gigantic colossal peas the size of cabbages.”https://www.theguardian.com/books/20...ing-complexity


What is the world feeding the mind and the brain of children with? Or am I being a snob?

What horrifies you, dovers?
The research or the extract?
It's the research that bothers me: that's a great sentence, which accumulatates in intensity of grotesqueness, has nice repetition (not that difficult, surely), and is exactly the sort of thing that can get young readers' attention and interest.
I don't see what's not to like.

[french frank]

I found this absolutely horrifying, as well as embarrassing.

The headline in the Guardian attracted me this morning but, as I understand it (and as I understand the limitations to their research which Renaissance concedes), it considers the age of the potential child reader. The Mr Men books are for very young readers and the complication for them in a long sentence like the one quoted is in retaining what the beginning of it was about. Though it would make more sense to me to compare books intended for the same age group.

The repetition of the words is surely a way to imprint them on the minds of very young children?

[doversoul1]

What horrifies you, dovers?
The research or the extract?
It's the research that bothers me: that's a great sentence, which accumulatates in intensity of grotesqueness, has nice repetition (not that difficult, surely), and is exactly the sort of thing that can get young readers' attention and interest.
I don't see what's not to like.

What horrifies me is the fact that this is considered to be creative. Using size related adjectives to describe the size of a thing isn’t exactly creative. The child readers need no effort to respond to it even if they have not known the words.

As ff says, this can be a useful tool for reading practice in a mechanical way but not, to me, for inspiration. Gonger’s children may have been older than the intended readers of Mr Greedy but if we want to talk about creativity, teach children words like Klangfarbenmelodie and Synesthesia that open up their mind and inspire them. Children are much more capable than those who are involved in graded reading schemes like to believe.

[Pulcinella]

What horrifies me is the fact that this is considered to be creative. Using size related adjectives to describe the size of a thing isn’t exactly creative. The child readers need no effort to respond to it even if they have not known the words.

As ff says, this can be a useful tool for reading practice in a mechanical way but not, to me, for inspiration. Gonger’s children may have been older than the intended readers of Mr Greedy but if we want to talk about creativity, teach children words like Klangfarbenmelodie and Synesthesia that open up their mind and inspire them. Children are much more capable than those who are involved in graded reading schemes like to believe.

I take your point, but maybe you should try volunteering in a local primary school, as I do, and see just what the reading ability of some of the children is. If I could help them by getting them interested in Mr Greedy, then, believe me, I would think that an achievement. Several of them cannot read the sorts of passage they have to answer questions on for their imminent Year 6 SATS. Of course, Mr Gove would have them all reading Oliver Twist! And you're suggesting that they'd be interested in learning words like Klangfarbenmelodie and Synesthesia?

[doversoul1]

I take your point, but maybe you should try volunteering in a local primary school, as I do, and see just what the reading ability of some of the children is. If I could help them by getting them interested in Mr Greedy, then, believe me, I would think that an achievement. Several of them cannot read the sorts of passage they have to answer questions on for their imminent Year 6 SATS. Of course, Mr Gove would have them all reading Oliver Twist! And you're suggesting that they'd be interested in learning words like Klangfarbenmelodie and Synesthesia?

That is my point. Mr Men books are a useful series for reading practice but, to me, they are not creative. My guess is that most schools can’t be bothered or teachers haven’t time to look for books that serve the purpose for both mechanical reading practice and for nurturing imagination and creativity. There are plenty but they are not usually found in WH Smith and they tend to be slightly more pricy than Mr Men books.

Having said all this, if you compare the original Mr Men series to the new series written by his son, the original are miles more original () and imaginative.

[Pulcinella]

That is my point. Mr Men books are a useful series for reading practice but, to me, they are not creative. My guess is that most schools can’t be bothered or teachers haven’t time to look for books that serve the purpose for both mechanical reading practice and for nurturing imagination and creativity. There are plenty but they are not usually found in WH Smith and they tend to be slightly more pricy than Mr Men books.

Having said all this, if you compare the original Mr Men series to the new series written by his son, the original are miles more original () and imaginative.

Ouch!
The school library is full of such books.
The Year 6 class 'read' for next half term (mentioned elsewhere, on the 'What are you reading now' thread) is The Graveyard Book by Neil Gaiman.
My point is that I'd take anything (Mr Men, Wimpy Kid, the side of a Cornflakes packet) to get youngsters interested in reading. Some of those I work with have parents who themselves can't read; many others get little or no encouragement at home. Creativity might just have to take second place to a more basic skill.

[french frank]

My point is that I'd take anything (Mr Men, Wimpy Kid, the side of a Cornflakes packet) to get youngsters interested in reading. Some of those I work with have parents who themselves can't read; many others get little or no encouragement at home. Creativity might just have to take second place to a more basic skill.

I have a suspicion we are straying into ds's area of expertise; nevertheless:

Isn't learning how to read the first step? - coping, when they get older, with being able to read a letter from the council or the signs in a shop.

There was a time (in a golden age far away) when parents could expand on what children learnt at school by having books around the home and getting them interested in reading them. But I'm quite sure ds is right in saying that schools don't have time to concern themselves with fostering imagination and creativity through reading. If the home background isn't conducive - and goodness knows how widespread that is - children may never read for pleasure. I suspect we've reached a stage where fewer and fewer young people (under 40) read books much.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Isn't Mr Hargreaves' creativity shown in his collecting groups of synonyms ("huge, enormous, gigantic, colossal"), putting them into a narrative context with which infant readers can empathise, and repeating the use of these collections, so that the sound of the rhythms of the spoken words, and the sight of the printed words on the page becomes famiiar to these infant learner readers in a non-daunting way?

And, whilst the research might be useful to school teachers (in particular those with specific responsibilities for formulating and delivering a school's Literacy policy) it's not just directed at schools but at parents/guardians at home (and, perhaps even more so, at publishers, who might be encouraged to use the ATOS readability score to make the reading age range of their children's books clearly marked on the cover).

I didn't read that the research was intended to demonstrate how reading Mr Hargreaves' books would stimulate children's own creativity - rather that he himself used vocabulary in a creative manner which infants would find a sympathetic help to their learning the mechanics of how to read.

[oddoneout]

That phrase gives children the tools to be creative though doesn't it? It introduces vocabulary for size and the idea of making comparisons to illustrate relative size, and does so in a way that children can enjoy. The rhythm and repetition enables the words to be memorised, and it's the kind of thing that gets small children joining in; the fun can be extended by having the adult reader in a group session alter some of the words so the children can 'correct' the grown-up. Introducing new words within the framework of the repeated section is less difficult for new and struggling readers.
There is also a difference between the process of learning to read and that of free talk prompted by an activity. In MrGG's example the adults involved responded to the children's interest by supplying the words that described what they were doing or answered a direct question; that is not the same as putting that word in a reading context and requiring the child to first decode its pronunciation and then sort out its meaning, especially if it is without any practical application opportunity. Young pupils coming on school visits where I work will often engage in discussions at a much higher level than their reading skills would allow them to do - and sometimes beyond the immediate knowledge of the adults in charge it has to be said.
Something I have become aware of while looking through charity shops for books for my granddaughter is that there seem to be many that I would consider to be poor quality - stilted/age inappropriate(as in mismatched not the other sense...) language,earnest PC/hot topic messages not always as factually accurate or well explained as one would wish, and poor quality illustrations and font choices. The books my children had 30 plus years ago, for all their perceived faults when viewed through today's eyes, bring pleasure to the 5 year old as they did to her father, and are preferred by her to the ones the school wants her to read. The focus on so many TV and film related characters can be quite limiting, and frustrating for parents not happy with some of the associated stereotyping, but the positive of such books is that they can get the child to engage with the idea of reading - which is the most important step.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

That phrase gives children the tools to be creative though doesn't it? It introduces vocabulary for size and the idea of making comparisons to illustrate relative size, and does so in a way that children can enjoy. The rhythm and repetition enables the words to be memorised, and it's the kind of thing that gets small children joining in; the fun can be extended by having the adult reader in a group session alter some of the words so the children can 'correct' the grown-up. Introducing new words within the framework of the repeated section is less difficult for new and struggling readers.

Oh, yes - I can imagine adults and children having great fun making up their own versions (a "Mister Skinny" who has a "wee, small, tiny, miniscule" amount to eat, sort of thing).

But I don't think that that was referred to in the article?

[eighthobstruction]

....Ref the Hargreaves books [not the research] it is likely these are books to read TO children, not necessarily BY children (I'm sure some children would be quite able to read them) They imo, are books to be read out loud for children to chuckle to, learn intonation, timing, how to sell a joke/or a punch line....also how exciting it is to sit quiet with a parent and be enterained....leading to family 'in jokes' and sayings....showing tyhe love and inventiveness of humour....(Imo if they used these books for their research they were barking up the wrong thing that's a bit like a lamp post but made out of wood)
....yes -as oddoneout says:-

....psst and fhg too

[Dave2002]

There are big problems with early books and teaching children (people ...) to read. For very young children I don't see any major problem with excerpts mentioned, and as suggested upthread, in some cases the children will have the stories read aloud to them.

Problems can arise later, if for example a child hasn't learnt to read by (say) the age of 8 or 9. By then most children will have a view of the world, and what they like in it. If the only books a school has for early reading is the present day equivalent of Janet and John, then such are hardly going to be of interest to a boy (or girl) who likes football and possibly going to football matches, or a girl (I'm trying not to be gender specific - boy) who likes cooking and wants to read recipe books.

Imaginative teachers might try to find relevant texts - for example newspaper reports of a recent football match, or a recipe which has recently been shown on TV. The texts might have to be modified a bit, but it's nonsense to use texts such as the aforementioned reading scheme books for older children who haven't made the breakthrough to read. I believe one of the latest schemes features Bart the Shark - might work for young children, but not the older age ranges.

Also, remember than not all parents are literate. Many hide this well. I can recall a story of one parent who would often wait close to the school notice board, and then ask people to read the latest notices as she had forgotten her glasses. This happened sufficiently often that we suspected it wasn't her eyes which were the problem. Another story relates to a young boy who learnt to read, though perhaps not particularly well. Eventually his father wanted to comment on this, and the teachers thought this was going to be a problem case. It turned out that the father was delighted, as he could hardly read, so his son could help him - and was very tactful - useful in restaurants. "Do you want the chicken casserole, or the beef stew, Dad?"

I have also come across workmen who seem competent enough, and have the almost ubiquitous iPhone, but will actually admit that they have problems with sending out bills and invoices, as they perhaps have difficulties with reading, writing and/or arithmetic. Most people don't advertise this fact to others.

Even someone who only has modest reading skills can be helpful to others. Using material which doesn't motivate the learners and which is inappropriate for their age is not clever. It can also lead effectively to bullying, as other children in the class are likely to notice, and they are not all going to be sympathetic if they see a class member struggling with material "for babies".

[doversoul1]

Going off the topic a bit:
Can ferneyhoughgeliebte or any other experts on the forum explain the difference between clever composition and creative composition? Or maybe clever performance and creative performance?