Labour and antisemitism

[Bryn]

Indeed - Mosley himself, for example.

Quite so, and though I knew her only from occasional visits to Cwmaman in my childhood, my maternal grandmother reputedly struck the blighter with her umbrella when she was living in Penge, before WWII.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

[Lat-Literal]

The far right in the UK is a boil that needs lancing every now and again, usually with much help from the boil itself. I think the idea that the far right would gain significant traction in the UK under non-"delivery" of Brexit is seriously far-fetched.

When Nick Griffin has already been an MEP and his party was picking up 20-40% of votes in key parts of the country just before the UKIP surge when UKIP topped the polls? We have already had more problems at football than has existed for many a year. It has an EDL dimension. If the entire establishment thinks it can renege on this matter and not trigger serious social breakdown in many parts of Britain, it is living in cloud cuckoo land. In a sense, votes for the far right will be seen as the best - and only - way of minimising those problems.

[Richard Barrett]

If the entire establishment thinks it can renege on this matter

I don't think anyone's talking about reneging on anything - there hasn't even been a vote on a second referendum yet! - and it's very unlikely that either principal party will come out unambiguously for Remain. What Corbyn for example is saying is that Remain is - even for eurosceptics like him - preferable to a Tory Brexit of either the May or Mogg variety.

[Lat-Literal]

I don't think anyone's talking about reneging on anything - there hasn't even been a vote on a second referendum yet! - and it's very unlikely that either principal party will come out unambiguously for Remain. What Corbyn for example is saying is that Remain is - even for eurosceptics like him - preferable to a Tory Brexit of either the May or Mogg variety.

I don't think people have quite grasped yet just how much this matters.

You will recall that I voted Remain. I then moved to supporting Brexit following the referendum. The very idea that Remain should be even countenanced at this stage is so far from my thinking that I regard it as an outrage. Additionally, I am not overly enamoured by anything the Labour Party has said or done to date which would at most provide a Brexit that is virtually meaningless in terms of Britain making a break from the EU. A second referendum could deliver Remain or a meaningless Brexit. In my opinion, Parliament would have been so devalued as a consequence that I could no longer support its existence. There is absolutely no point in supporting a pretend democracy. You might as well have no democracy at all because the absence of one is less of a winding up of the public. What this means is I would not condemn any actions that the mob took against Parliament, its buildings or individual MPs for failing to deliver and, yes, I would consider voting for the far right to demonstrate that I no longer believed in the institutions. I absolutely mean this. I would vote BNP if this is not delivered. If I can be lost in that way, the country has a very big problem and it can't say it hasn't been warned. I have chosen to be first in the queue of many to spell it out.

As for a Tory Brexit, that concept is utterly incoherent. French Frank produced an article by Caroline Lucas which raised some very real concerns about private companies suing Governments for loss of profits because of policy. That is, although that process has been in place since 1972 and there is an argument that it can protect our business overseas. I don't like it myself. The EU is finally moving away from it. Liam Fox will not. That is hardly surprising. But a Brexit is not a Tory Brexit or a moon is made of cheese Brexit. It enables Governments to make decisions. Labour, Lib Dems or the left wing of the Conservative Party could get rid of that, regulate at will, and free up immigration till the cows come home.

[Bryn]

Parliament, in my view, is in the mess it is because it abdicated its responsibility to treat the Referendum as purely advisory, which constitutionally it was. This craven submission to mob rule by MPs of both 'main' parties is what I see as having led to the utter comtempt in which many hold their elected representatives.

[Joseph K]

I don't think people have quite grasped yet just how much this matters.

You will recall that I voted Remain. I then moved to supporting Brexit following the referendum. The very idea that Remain should be even countenanced at this stage is so far from my thinking that I regard it as an outrage. Additionally, I am not overly enamoured by anything the Labour Party has said or done to date which would at most provide a Brexit that is virtually meaningless in terms of Britain making a break from the EU. A second referendum could deliver Remain or a meaningless Brexit. In my opinion, Parliament would have been so devalued as a consequence that I could no longer support its existence. There is absolutely no point in supporting a pretend democracy. You might as well have none and at all. What this means is that I would not condemn any actions that the mob took against it and, yes, I would consider voting for the far right to demonstrate that I no longer believed in the institutions. I absolutely mean this. I would vote BNP if this is not delivered. If I can be lost in that way, the country has a very big problem and it can't say it hasn't been warned.

Sounds like you've been reading the Daily Mail too much (i.e. at all). All that was on the ballot was remain or leave, not 'meaningfully leave' or 'slightly leave'. It was vague, but right-wing papers have constructed what 'Brexit' means for the people that read them, from what I gather. I find it curious, bizarre even, that you would change your position on the EU in the way you describe.

[Joseph K]

Parliament, in my view, is in the mess it is because it abdicated its responsibility to treat the Referendum as purely advisory, which constitutionally it was. This craven submission to mob rule by MPs of both 'main' parties is was I see as having led to the utter comtempt in which many hold their elected representatives.

[Lat-Literal]

Sounds like you've been reading the Daily Mail too much (i.e. at all). All that was on the ballot was remain or leave, not 'meaningfully leave' or 'slightly leave'. It was vague, but right-wing papers have constructed what 'Brexit' means for the people that read them, from what I gather. I find it curious, bizarre even, that you would change your position on the EU in the way you describe.

I changed my position because 52% voted to leave. What this means, and I do mean this, is that I will vote for absolutely anyone or anything in order to get this thing honoured - even if the outcome is a national economy that goes completely down the drain, there are race wars and class wars, and I personally end up completely penniless and living on the streets.

I couldn't care less about any of those things above the honouring of the result.

[Dave2002]

I don't think people have quite grasped yet just how much this matters.

You will recall that I voted Remain. I then moved to supporting Brexit following the referendum. The very idea that Remain should be even countenanced at this stage is so far from my thinking that I regard it as an outrage.

I also voted Remain. More recently I have swung the other way. However, it does appear from the "evidence" and discussion over the last year, that immigration really was one of the major factors which influenced people to vote for Leave. I'll accept that it may not have been the only one, but it does seem that that one issue was much more important in the outcome.

If that is/was the case, then what is the point of leaving the EU, if the current (and presumably future) UK governments are totally incapable of reducing immigration to the levels which might be acceptable to those who voted Leave?

OK - so EU immigration will be limited and controlled, but the government has been totally ineffective at reducing immigration during the last few years. There is likely to be a slight change in the composition of the incoming communities to the UK, but the size of the immigration will not reduce.

Other reasons for leaving seem far fetched. I don't believe that the UK will be able to make better trade negotiations with the rest of the world than the EU. I don't believe that money "saved" by not paying into the EU will be reallocated to the benefit of people in the UK - particularly those who voted to leave.

The EU is not perfect - I know that - but there really seems no point in "leaving" it if one of the major factors in the Brexit vote is not to be addressed.

So yes - I think that Remain could still be countenanced since the supposedly knowledgeable people in government and Parliament seem unable to come up with a satisfactory solution which commands widespread support.

I am neither in favour of, or against immigrants. I do think that the UK has benefitted by employing immigrants, though that may have depleted the skilled workforce in the countries of origin of some of these. The likelihood is that different countries will be targetted when and if the UK leaves the EU and immigration restrictions are put into place.

That doesn't mean that I necessarily want that - but by now I am so confused by the whole nonsense of this, that I don't think the option you mention should be ruled out - though if there actually is a second referendum I would expect that to be as badly organised as the first one.

[Richard Barrett]

What this means, and I do mean this, is that I will vote for absolutely anyone or anything in order to get this thing honoured - even if the outcome is a national economy that goes completely down the drain, there are race wars and class wars, and I personally end up completely penniless and living on the streets.

The voice of reason!

[Conchis]

The far right in the UK is a boil that needs lancing every now and again, usually with much help from the boil itself. I think the idea that the far right would gain significant traction in the UK under non-"delivery" of Brexit is seriously far-fetched.

Not just 'seriously': TOTALLY.

I've said it before: cancellation of Brexit provides an ideal opportunity to gather up all the right-wing fruit-loops who've been parading in the open since 2016 (and earlier) and bang them in the slammer. Classify UKIP and the BNP as 'terrorist organisations', and have done with it (it's what they both long to be, after all)!

[Lat-Literal]

I also voted Remain. More recently I have swung the other way. However, it does appear from the "evidence" and discussion over the last year, that immigration really was one of the major factors which influenced people to vote for Leave. I'll accept that it may not have been the only one, but it does seem that that one issue was much more important in the outcome.

If that is/was the case, then what is the point of leaving the EU, if the current (and presumably future) UK governments are totally incapable of reducing immigration to the levels which might be acceptable to those who voted Leave?

OK - so EU immigration will be limited and controlled, but the government has been totally ineffective at reducing immigration during the last few years. There is likely to be a slight change in the composition of the incoming communities to the UK, but the size of the immigration will not reduce.

Other reasons for leaving seem far fetched. I don't believe that the UK will be able to make better trade negotiations with the rest of the world than the EU. I don't believe that money "saved" by not paying into the EU will be reallocated to the benefit of people in the UK - particularly those who voted to leave.

The EU is not perfect - I know that - but there really seems no point in "leaving" it if one of the major factors in the Brexit vote is not to be addressed.

So yes - I think that Remain could still be countenanced since the supposedly knowledgeable people in government and Parliament seem unable to come up with a satisfactory solution which commands widespread support.

I am neither in favour of, or against immigrants. I do think that the UK has benefitted by employing immigrants, though that may have depleted the skilled workforce in the countries of origin of some of these. The likelihood is that different countries will be targetted when and if the UK leaves the EU and immigration restrictions are put into place.

That doesn't mean that I necessarily want that - but by now I am so confused by the whole nonsense of this, that I don't think the option you mention should be ruled out - though if there actually is a second referendum I would expect that to be as badly organised as the first one.

There is quite a difference between having different opinions on whether immigration should be at 30,000 pa or 500,000 pa and not having any management of what the levels will be.

One way that the EU might have tackled this issue is to have enabled countries to declare which direction of freedom of movement they favoured annually - in or out - so that in the other direction those countries could set annual limits. In that way, Latvia, for example, could have set limits on who left Latvia and would have no limits on who arrived in Latvia while a country like Britain would probably wish to vary the direction over time. At least then, we'd have some sort of sense in the policy while retaining much of what it set out to achieve.

My formative experience - 1970s/1980s - was, as with almost everyone, connected with non European immigration. It was more than positive locally, albeit very limited; interesting and enriching but complex closer to wider family who were just up the road from Brixton; and more detailed when I opted for race relations studies at university post riots. I was always in favour of it culturally and rarely took into account the economic aspects, such as they were, because I've never been money orientated. But I took my observations of it in London in the 1970s/1980s into those courses and concluded very early on that pace was everything in terms of what could easily be accommodated by everyone including new migrants and what could not be. I find freedom of movement unhelpful - and unfair in human terms - in regard to all assimilation as pace can't be chosen. On balance, I still voted Remain but had doubts.

The voice of reason!

It is the voice of democracy.

Many have fought and died for it.

I don't see why I or anyone else should not be prepared to do so.

As I say, I really genuinely don't care if the national economy and my own personal finances are slaughtered in this process because I place democracy above the economy and my life.

[Conchis]

How do Leavers and people who believe that the Frauderendum result must be honoured react to the charge that the official campaign to Leave had nothing to do with Brexit and was ALL about damaging David Cameron and halting the inevitable coronation of George Osborne as his successor?

The beneficiaries were supposed to be Boris Johnson and Michael Gove - neither of whom believed (or wanted?) Leave to win.

Well, they succeeded beyond their wildest dreams - but why should the rest of us have to suffer?

[Serial_Apologist]

I don't think people have quite grasped yet just how much this matters.

You will recall that I voted Remain. I then moved to supporting Brexit following the referendum. The very idea that Remain should be even countenanced at this stage is so far from my thinking that I regard it as an outrage. Additionally, I am not overly enamoured by anything the Labour Party has said or done to date which would at most provide a Brexit that is virtually meaningless in terms of Britain making a break from the EU. A second referendum could deliver Remain or a meaningless Brexit. In my opinion, Parliament would have been so devalued as a consequence that I could no longer support its existence. There is absolutely no point in supporting a pretend democracy. You might as well have no democracy at all because the absence of one is less of a winding up of the public. What this means is I would not condemn any actions that the mob took against Parliament, its buildings or individual MPs for failing to deliver and, yes, I would consider voting for the far right to demonstrate that I no longer believed in the institutions. I absolutely mean this. I would vote BNP if this is not delivered. If I can be lost in that way, the country has a very big problem and it can't say it hasn't been warned. I have chosen to be first in the queue of many to spell it out.

As for a Tory Brexit, that concept is utterly incoherent. French Frank produced an article by Caroline Lucas which raised some very real concerns about private companies suing Governments for loss of profits because of policy. That is, although that process has been in place since 1972 and there is an argument that it can protect our business overseas. I don't like it myself. The EU is finally moving away from it. Liam Fox will not. That is hardly surprising. But a Brexit is not a Tory Brexit or a moon is made of cheese Brexit. It enables Governments to make decisions. Labour, Lib Dems or the left wing of the Conservative Party could get rid of that, regulate at will, and free up immigration till the cows come home.

I imagine quite a lot of German citizens said something like this in 1933: democracy doesn't matter any more. The freedom you say you want was the result.