Labour and antisemitism

[french frank]

Are we still talking about Corbyn here, or ...

I think it's a very human failing not to criticise our friends or allies. Many of us don't have the discretion, diplomacy or courage to do so. IOW we're pathetic creatures. But for most of us, it doesn't matter.

[Conchis]

No, I agree. But it's the fact that he is leader and should lead. He feels equivocal about lot of things and finds it difficult to criticise any aspect of a policy (or person) to which he is basically sympathetic (half a dozen examples since he took over the leadership). But there is a 'Those who are not for us are against us' aspect to the accusations of anti-semitism.

Exactly!

[Conchis]

Until Corbyn stands up and makes an unambiguous statement along the lines of 'This is MY Labour Party and JEWS DO NOT BELONG HERE!', he's not an anti-semite, in my book. I somehow can't imagine him doing that.....

There may be more mileage in the charge that he is 'anti-Zionist', however, but that's a whole new tin of squirming maggots.....

[Jazzrook]

There has certainly been a long-standing anti-semitic trend within the 'left' in Britain. Back in the '70s and '80s, it was all too common for some supposedly on the left to associate the star of David with the swastika. The perceived friendship between leading Israeli politicians and apartheid South Africa did not help matters.

Surely, there's far more antisemitism within the Right which never seems to get reported.
It also puzzles me why Jewish supporters of Labour & Corbyn are rarely allowed to make their case in the mainstream media.

JR

[Dave2002]

Assuming the thread can continue as long as we keep off party politics: I think there are ways of drawing attention to policy, to demonstrating the suffering it causes &c, without specifically 'attacking' individuals or groups of individuals.

I was brought up to avoid two topics - politics and religion. That doesn't mean I don't have views, or don't comment ever. I think that both these topic areas require considerable care, and this thread manages (at the very least indirectly) to combine them. Take care!

I can't quote chapter and verse, but some people seem to feel that not enough support was given to the Member for Liverpool Wavertree who has clearly been abused and attacked by others. And perhaps, even within the Labour party, there has been personal antagonism directed at anyone who has a contrary view on Israel? That could constitute anti-semitism.

I know the L15 L16 areas of Liverpool quite well, and have relatives living there. I really don't know about the specific issues, nor even if I should, or would want to, start digging.

Re the Labour party, and Bryn's comment that "anti-semitism" (whatever that is, exactly) has long been something which some in the Labour party have been involved in - again I can't say. I am not a Labour party member, nor do I have any inside track of the workings or machinations within that organisation. From the outside I don't see too much - maybe I'm blind - and I'm not trying to be.

[Conchis]

I was brought up to avoid two topics - politics and religion. That doesn't mean I don't have views, or don't comment ever. I think that both these topic areas require considerable care, and this thread manages (at the very least indirectly) to combine them. Take care!

I know the L15 L16 areas of Liverpool quite well, and have relatives living there. I really don't know about the specific issues, nor even if I should, or would want to, start digging.

Re the Labour party, and Bryn's comment that "anti-semitism" (whatever that is, exactly) has long been something which some in the Labour party have been involved in - again I can't say. I am not a Labour party member, nor do I have any inside track of the workings or machinations within that organisation. From the outside I don't see too much - maybe I'm blind - and I'm not trying to be.

This is the issue and there has been no response to my suggestion that anti-semitism and 'anti-Zionism' are two distinct entities.

I met a Jewish Zionist during the summer who felt extremely antagonistic toward Corbyn and Labour's direction under him. Because she felt so strongly, it was hard to engage her in reasoned debate without accidentally causing offence, so I confined myself to a listening role. What I heard wasn't illuminating, though....

Maybe we could do with a definition of 'Zionism' and 'anti-Zionism'? As some would define it, an anti-Zionist is someone who disputes the right of Jews to have a homeland in the middle-east, but I know a fair few Palestinian Arabs who, though very critical of Israel and its territorial behaviour, don't have an issue with the 'homeland thing' and wouldn't associate with anyone who did.

Personally, I think western politicians are pig-ignorant of the politics of the middle-east. Simply put, they just don't get it, but that doesn't stop them from pontificating and causing even more damage with their ill-advised interventions.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

"anti-semitism" (whatever that is, exactly)

It might be useful to refer to the "Working Definition of Anti-Semitism" provided by the International Holocaust Remembrance Alliance to answer - within the limitations of a "Working Definition" - any such doubts:

Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred toward Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed toward Jewish or non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, toward Jewish community institutions and religious facilities.

Manifestations might include the targeting of the state of Israel, conceived as a Jewish collectivity. However, criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic. Antisemitism frequently charges Jews with conspiring to harm humanity, and it is often used to blame Jews for “why things go wrong.” It is expressed in speech, writing, visual forms and action, and employs sinister stereotypes and negative character traits.

Contemporary examples of antisemitism in public life, the media, schools, the workplace, and in the religious sphere could, taking into account the overall context, include, but are not limited to:

Calling for, aiding, or justifying the killing or harming of Jews in the name of a radical ideology or an extremist view of religion.

Making mendacious, dehumanizing, demonizing, or stereotypical allegations about Jews as such or the power of Jews as collective — such as, especially but not exclusively, the myth about a world Jewish conspiracy or of Jews controlling the media, economy, government or other societal institutions.

Accusing Jews as a people of being responsible for real or imagined wrongdoing committed by a single Jewish person or group, or even for acts committed by non-Jews.

Denying the fact, scope, mechanisms (e.g. gas chambers) or intentionality of the genocide of the Jewish people at the hands of National Socialist Germany and its supporters and accomplices during World War II (the Holocaust).

Accusing the Jews as a people, or Israel as a state, of inventing or exaggerating the Holocaust.

Accusing Jewish citizens of being more loyal to Israel, or to the alleged priorities of Jews worldwide, than to the interests of their own nations.

Denying the Jewish people their right to self-determination, e.g., by claiming that the existence of a State of Israel is a racist endeavor.

Applying double standards by requiring of it a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation.

Using the symbols and images associated with classic antisemitism (e.g., claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis.

Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis.

Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the state of Israel.

[Dave2002]

I don't think there's any need to shout!

For me:

Not all Israelis are Jews.
Not all Jews are Israelis.

etc. etc.

I do not deny that terrible things happened to many Jews - and to other non-Jews - in the past, and some of these things are still happening today.

I'm not going to stir things up any further.

[Bryn]

Surely, there's far more antisemitism within the Right which never seems to get reported.
It also puzzles me why Jewish supporters of Labour & Corbyn are rarely allowed to make their case in the mainstream media.

JR

No argument from me re. either point you raise. I was simply trying to remind that anti-semitism does have its history on the 'left', too.

[Stanfordian]

That depends on your perspective but I'd say it makes him 'weak'. A 'leader', though notionally in charge, can not (and should not) have authority of every single aspect of the organisation they lead. I'm pretty sure Theresa May feels pretty equivocal (if not actually antagonistic) toward Brexit - even so, she's pursuing it because it's her party's policy.

Corbyn's passivity reflects his mixed feelings: but there are times in politics when clarity is absolutely required.

Can't disagree with that.

[Richard Barrett]

I don't have much to say to this particular thread that hasn't already been said (mostly by Bryn), except in relation to Dave2002's point: the culture of being taught not to talk about politics or religion (and for example the rules regarding political discussions on this forum, and the fact that these rules are approved of probably by a majority of members) means that discourse on these subjects is often on a level that refuses to take account of the profound importance of some issues, or the subtlety of others (or indeed the same ones), or the difference between these.

[Serial_Apologist]

No argument from me re. either point you raise. I was simply trying to remind that anti-semitism does have its history on the 'left', too.

I can't disagree because our late friend Jean contradicted my assertion that there was little or no antisemitism on the left on this very forum, a while back, and the last person I would accuse of disingenuousness would be Jean.

Having said that, in all the ten years I was active in one of the larger Trotskyist groups (the IMG) - from 1973 to 1983 - I never came across antisemitism in any shape or form: had I done so I would have quit immediately. On the other hand, the Israel-Palestinian conflict never really played a big part of our activism: at the time it even seemed amenable to resolution, so the issue may not have arisen for that reason. To be honest, I was astounded to hear, through the mass media, that it was happening, and have been following the discussion on a left wing Corbyn-supporting website, where some of the background issues brought to the forum in the link to the initial post have been paid a lot of attention. The very few blatantly antisemitic posts there have all been obscene one-liners of the obvious troll kind, and not pursued further by their posters after being firmly put in their place - often, it has to be said, in like terms.

Very briefly, so as not to jeopardise what is turning out to be a well-conducted debate, not actually myself being personally acquainted with Corbyn, nor a member of the LP, my surmise would be that his hesitancy or understated public response to the accusations probably reflect his amazement that he and the Party should have been condemned by its accusers in the unequivocal and immoderate tones we have witnessed. I don't think it reflects in any particular way on his leadership qualities, or the alleged lack of them, any more than any circumspection on his part over Brexit - about which I would guess that he is as ambivalent about a divisive referendum over two alternative versions of capitalism, neoliberal globalism or competing nation states, each of which is as bad as the other, and somewhat hoisted on the petard of the party's voting base in the parts of the country most likely to be adversely affected by our coming out.

[Tony Halstead]

I can't disagree because our late friend Jean contradicted my assertion that there was little or no antisemitism on the left on this very forum, a while back, and the last person I would accuse of disingenuousness would be Jean.

Having said that, in all the ten years I was active in one of the larger Trotskyist groups (the IMG) - from 1973 to 1983 - I never came across antisemitism in any shape or form: had I done so I would have quit immediately. On the other hand, the Israel-Palestinian conflict never really played a big part of our activism: at the time it even seemed amenable to resolution, so the issue may not have arisen for that reason. To be honest, I was astounded to hear, through the mass media, that it was happening, and have been following the discussion on a left wing Corbyn-supporting website, where some of the background issues brought to the forum in the link to the initial post have been paid a lot of attention. The very few blatantly antisemitic posts there have all been obscene one-liners of the obvious troll kind, and not pursued further by their posters after being firmly put in their place - often, it has to be said, in like terms.

Very briefly, so as not to jeopardise what is turning out to be a well-conducted debate, not actually myself being personally acquainted with Corbyn, nor a member of the LP, my surmise would be that his hesitancy or understated public response to the accusations probably reflect his amazement that he and the Party should have been condemned by its accusers in the unequivocal and immoderate tones we have witnessed. I don't think it reflects in any particular way on his leadership qualities, or the alleged lack of them, any more than any circumspection on his part over Brexit - about which I would guess that he is as ambivalent about a divisive referendum over two alternative versions of capitalism, neoliberal globalism or competing nation states, each of which is as bad as the other, and somewhat hoisted on the petard of the party's voting base in the parts of the country most likely to be adversely affected by our coming out.

[Richard Barrett]

Having said that, in all the ten years I was active in one of the larger Trotskyist groups (the IMG) - from 1973 to 1983 - I never came across antisemitism in any shape or form: had I done so I would have quit immediately.

I could say the same about my time as an active member of the SWP (which of course was founded by a Palestinian Jew).

I think your assessment of Jeremy Corbyn's position is probably very accurate.

[Conchis]

Has anyone had a look at the new Tom Bower biography, 'Dangerous Hero'?

It begins with the revelation that in the 90s Corbyn got into serious personal doubt because he had promised to fund an office in his constituency and he insisted on honouring the debt. This, rather than the disagreement about his children's education, was supposedly what ended his second marriage. The story is apparently presented as an example of Corbyn's economic foolishness, yet his supporters are saying it's more indicative of his personal integrity. Your mileage may vary, as they used to say.....