THERE MAY YET BE HOPE....

[Dave2002]

Perhaps they believe they are representing all their constituents, but there's only way to know that for sure, is there not.

I think something is missing in that sentence. Also, over all the years I have voted - close to 50, almost all of the time the method I think you were hinting at has not represented what I voted for. Elections are very unlikely ever to represent the views of all the constituents. It would be a miracle if they did, though I believe that in some other countries that may be possible.

[MrGongGong]

Yes indeed, that is the kind of elitist sense of entitlement they all have.

Blimey
you are one of the last people I would expect to be sticking so closely to the script

Pass the port, old chap

[Richard Barrett]

Elections are very unlikely ever to represent the views of all the constituents.

That's true of course, but if an elected representative makes some radical change in political allegiance which is supposedly in the interests of their constituents there is, as I said, only one way to tell how those constituents actually feel about it. (All of the Labour defectors increased their vote share in the last election, which I think can be said was not due to the kind of stance they're now taking.)

As for sticking to the script, I wasn't aware there was a script these days!

[Conchis]

That's true of course, but if an elected representative makes some radical change in political allegiance which is supposedly in the interests of their constituents there is, as I said, only one way to tell how those constituents actually feel about it. (All of the Labour defectors increased their vote share in the last election, which I think can be said was not due to the kind of stance they're now taking.)

As for sticking to the script, I wasn't aware there was a script these days!

I think it has been psephologically proven that Labour's increased vote share in certain seats in the 2017 election was due to Remainers switching their support to Labour, regardless of their feelings about Corbyn.

Interestingly, my own Labour MP - a so-called 'Lexiter' - saw his majority fall to just above 5,000.

Regardless of how you feel about socialism, I think only a slight examination is required to satisfy yourself that Corbyn is not the person to deliver it, even if he was handed the opportunity. Everything about him suggests an activist rather than a politician, and Corbyn has shown himself pretty clueless in terms of turning ideas into action - his botched vote of No Confidence in the government being only the most recent example (why attempt something when you know it's bound to fail?)

I think the priority has to be getting rid of Brexit and then purging the British body politic of its advocates: only then can we return to 'normal business.'

But, reading between the lines, I think the 11 (so far) MPs know that they have reached the end of their careers in conventional party politics. The most senior of them (Gapes and Coffey) are of retirement age and the others don't seem to have a deep-rooted allegiance to their former party. Of the Tories, both Wollaston and Allen strike me as apolitical types who joined the Tory Party for (mistaken) public-spirited reasons, possibly because their own personal incomes put them in a higher tax bracket and because they found the Brown/Miliband Labour Party unappealing. Allen joined the party as recently as 2011 'inspired' by the street riots of that summer. Only Soubry would seem to be a natural, committed Tory which was why she gave the most 'emotional' leaving speech.

[LMcD]

But isn't staying in something you think is flawed and trying to reform it better than breaking from it completely? (Reminds me of something there ... can't quite put my finger on it ... )

Oh, go on - give us a clue!

[french frank]

Indeed not, but these people are screaming for a new referendum at the same time,

Irrelevant, Captain. The purpose of the Final Say/People's Vote or whatever is a recognition that a) the initial referendum was well and truly botched: one would have thought it obvious that when a momentous change to the status quo is contemplated, it should NOT be done on a wafer thin straight majority (leaving aside the misinformation, false promises, illegalities) b) the realities of overthrowing the status quo are now much clearer: if that's what the voters want, let them confirm it. If not, the status quo remains - for the present: it doesn't bind future politicians.

and this attitude, whether it's usual or not, will certainly harm the very cause they left their former parties for.

Arguably, the fault is not theirs but in the flaws of their home parties … I reread the Labour manifesto 2017 last night: I can't see in what way their views have changed on policy. They have said they simply could not ever campaign again for Mr Corbyn to be Prime Minister. He has attained a cult status which his competence as a politician (in my view, I mean) does not warrant. Personally, I have no problem with his policies but there are Ways and Means - and I don't think he's got what it takes. Faith in Him is not enough to deliver. Remember, this is not the first string of Labour resignations based a lack of confidence in the leader: the ministers who resigned got it in the neck from zealots then.

I don't really get your point about their "representing all their constituents" - it could just as easily be said that they are representing only themselves.

Easily said, but not persuasive. As I said earlier, and Conchis has since said, the greatest likelihood is that it's the end of their political careers - and they aren't all nearing retirement. I don't that they get ANYTHING out of it - unless the movement really takes wing: the odds are stacked against that.

Perhaps they believe they are representing all their constituents, but there's only way to know that for sure, is there not.

When people are politically engaged (in the way that we both are!) they tend to forget that the biggest job of these politicians is being a constituency MP: life goes on for ordinary people who still need help and advice from their representatives. You want to send them out to vote again ("Oh, no, no' another one")?

I think it is in the interests of the 'former parties' to have a quick byelection in the hope that tribal loyalties still persist among the voters. But the Independents don't need to consider the interests of their former parties.

[eighthobstruction]

<<I think the priority has to be getting rid of Brexit and then purging the British body politic of its advocates: only then can we return to 'normal business.' >>....quote Conchis

....Phew nail your colours to the mast why don't you....

....on the honour and validity of the 8s standpoint I go along with ff....of course McDonald et al immediately yap at their heals "call a bye election" to destabilise their message which is undoubtly "focus on stopping No Deal - then 2nd Ref'"....that is their first intention I believe, and talk of new parties surely basically an unlikely add on. Not to say that the action of the 8 isn't also a banner held up saying "Corbyn is a member of a secretive elite within the Labour Party, who would be a disastrousPM, Diplomat, Negotiator you name it" <catchy , but slightly long for a banner>....a PM has to take the public glare, European glare, International glare....Corbyn very good at preaching to the converted [and twisted] in small venues....nothing else. He does a fab brussel sprout I'm sure -but I don't like them either...

[Lat-Literal]

I have heard tens of voters, if not hundreds of voters, on the radio saying that they feel disenfranchised because of Brexit and hope there will be a new party of these independents.

Genuinely, I don't know what planet these people are living on. They are not disenfranchised (unlike me) as they already have a party to vote for - it is called the Liberal Democrats.

[MrGongGong]

<<I think the priority has to be getting rid of Brexit and then purging the British body politic of its advocates: only then can we return to 'normal business.' >>....quote Conchis
.

Everything else is a distraction.

[MrGongGong]

I have heard tens of voters if not hundreds of voters on the radio saying that they feel disenfranchised because of Brexit and hope there will be a new party of these independents.

Genuinely, I don't know what planet these people are living on. There are not disenfranchised (unlike me) because they already have a party to vote for - it is called the Liberal Democrats.

Sorry chum you are completely wrong there.
The Lib Dems have proven themselves totally untrustworthy (along with the rest) given what they did last time people voted for them.
It's tedious to go over the nonsense again and again BUT why anyone would support the likes of Cable and Co escapes me
They could have actually been a bit more smart and got rid of all those who were complicit in the coalition but chose not to.

There really is NO ONE to vote FOR who will stop the disaster that is Brexit.
I was talking to a player in one of the London orchestras last night who was saying how they have NO gigs in Europe after March it's all in the far east and the UK.
Not to mention people who make and sell stuff etc etc etc

[Lat-Literal]

Sorry chum you are completely wrong there.
The Lib Dems have proven themselves totally untrustworthy (along with the rest) given what they did last time people voted for them.
It's tedious to go over the nonsense again and again BUT why anyone would support the likes of Cable and Co escapes me
They could have actually been a bit more smart and got rid of all those who were complicit in the coalition but chose not to.

There really is NO ONE to vote FOR who will stop the disaster that is Brexit.
I was talking to a player in one of the London orchestras last night who was saying how they have NO gigs in Europe after March it's all in the far east and the UK.
Not to mention people who make and sell stuff etc etc etc

Then they must vote for the Greens.

Young people from lower middle class backgrounds could get on the property ladder in two of the following three scenarios.

Which?

a. When Britain was not a member of the EEC or the EU
b. When Britain was a member of the EEC
c. When Britain was a member of the EU

If your answer was a and b it means that you spotted that c was the odd one out.

Congratulations - and full marks.

[gurnemanz]

I think it has been psephologically proven that Labour's increased vote share in certain seats in the 2017 election was due to Remainers switching their support to Labour, regardless of their feelings about Corbyn.

Interestingly, my own Labour MP - a so-called 'Lexiter' - saw his majority fall to just above 5,000.

Regardless of how you feel about socialism, I think only a slight examination is required to satisfy yourself that Corbyn is not the person to deliver it, even if he was handed the opportunity. Everything about him suggests an activist rather than a politician, and Corbyn has shown himself pretty clueless in terms of turning ideas into action - his botched vote of No Confidence in the government being only the most recent example (why attempt something when you know it's bound to fail?)

Good points. As a student 50 years ago I had some idealistic sympathy for socialism but a few years later my experience of the workings of a real socialist republic soon disabused me of it, when I was attempting at great bureaucratic length to marry a citizen of the German Democratic Republic. Corbyn strikes me as a blinkered ideologue who would have fitted in well in that country as a minor party functionary. His long-standing hatred of the EU seems to be based mainly on ideology-based anti-capitalism. He is, as you point out, incompetent into the bargain. I could never vote for Labour under his leadership and in this I very much sympathise with Bella's post above. I've only voted Labour once in my life and I've never voted Tory and after this historic Brexit cock-up I can't see how I ever would. At the last election I voted Lib Dem - a futile gesture in our N. Wilts constituency where the Tories always win and the MP is hardline ERG. Left with nowhere else to go, it looks like Green in future or Monster Raving Loony, if they still exist.

I agree with Jayne in her initial post that those three Tory women offer a spark of hope (admittedly a very tiny one) that the tragic farce of Brexit might be ended.

Incidentally, after over 40 years of being happily British but with European citizenship my wife has now also taken a German passport, as the only way of maintaining the European identity which Brexit wantonly denies her. As offspring of a native German, our two children in their late 30's have followed suit. Alas not an option for me.

PS Thanks to FF for above detailed reply which saves me the effort of making similar points.

[MrGongGong]

Then they must vote for the Greens.

Young people from lower middle class backgrounds could get on the property ladder in two of the following three scenarios.

Which?

a. When Britain was not a member of the EEC or the EU
b. When Britain was a member of the EEC
c. When Britain was a member of the EU

If your answer was a and b it means that you spotted that c was the odd one out.

Congratulations - and full marks.

http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

How does one vote for the greens when you live where I do ?

I didn't realise the idea of voting was to make sure you have more stuff for yourself.

[Lat-Literal]

Good points. As a student 50 years ago I had some idealistic sympathy for socialism but a few years later my experience of the workings of a real socialist republic soon disabused me of it, when I was attempting at great bureaucratic length to marry a citizen of the German Democratic Republic. Corbyn strikes me as a blinkered ideologue who would have fitted in well in that country as a minor party functionary. His long-standing hatred of the EU seems to be based mainly on ideology-based anti-capitalism. He is, as you point out, incompetent into the bargain. I could never vote for Labour under his leadership and in this I very much sympathise with Bella's post above. I've only voted Labour once in my life and I've never voted Tory and after this historic Brexit cock-up I can't see how I ever would. At the last election I voted Lib Dem - a futile gesture in our N. Wilts constituency where the Tories always win and the MP is hardline ERG. Left with nowhere else to go, it looks like Green in future or Monster Raving Loony, if they still exist.

I agree with Jayne in her initial post that those three Tory women offer a spark of hope (admittedly a very tiny one) that the tragic farce of Brexit might be ended.

Incidentally, after over 40 years of being happily British but with European citizenship my wife has now also taken a German passport, as the only way of maintaining the European identity which Brexit wantonly denies her. As offspring of a native German, our two children in their late 30's have followed suit. Alas not an option for me.

PS Thanks to FF for above detailed reply which saves me the effort of making similar points.

I voted for the SDP and the Liberal parties when they didn't stand a chance of winning in every General Election from 1983 to 2005 inclusive and I never whinged that it was a so-called wasted vote. In 2010 and 2015, I voted Green in similar circumstances before voting Conservative in 2017. Some accept the system and the decisions of the majority, even if both are not in their favour for most of their lifetimes. Others, sadly, cannot cope with that sort of situation for just a few months. It is one reason why I abandoned liberalism. It is intolerant.

Most of us have a European identity by virtue of having been born in Europe. You, your wife, me and millions of others were born in countries which did not belong at the time of our births to any early version of the EU. In terms of citizenship, we are fundamentally identified officially by nation state. That is true even of your children for as you say it is a German passport that they are obtaining rather than a European one, even though their mother was not living in a country that was part of the EU or any prior version at the time of their births.

[Lat-Literal]

http://www.tylervigen.com/spurious-correlations

How does one vote for the greens when you live where I do ?

I didn't realise the idea of voting was to make sure you have more stuff for yourself.

I don't know where you live.

The Gang of 11 are behaving as if they agree with a majority view that there should be same sex marriage while simultaneously blocking the door of the church to physically prevent it.

That isn't my idea of liberalism.

Citizenship is a trickier issue, not least because of Ms Begum and Mr Rice.

The latter has set something of a precedent in his decision to abandon the football team of the Republic of Ireland - a country he may or may not have ever visited before signing up to them - for the England football team. The fact that his Great Aunt Fanny or someone of that ilk was born in Ireland and lived there briefly is no longer being prioritised now that it looks like the association, such as it is or ever was, limits his own personal success. Nevertheless, he will no doubt retain so-called dual citizenship for purposes of free medical treatment when on holiday and will pass that down through his generations for ever more. Hopefully he will not be among those who have the temerity to criticise private health on the grounds that it is a two tier system although those of us in a less privileged position can and will continue to do so without any connotation of being two faced. Readers will appreciate that we are not the ones moaning about the removal from us of EU treatment. That comes only from those whose entire family will continue to benefit from such a system but not themselves.

The first will almost certainly have her British citizenship reintroduced after the efforts of Mr Clarke, Mr Davey and most of the Labour Party. That will be a further smack in the chops for all the law abiding members of the Windrush Generation who had theirs removed and were ordered out. None of the above gave two hoots. Sadly, they weren't sexy enough for them.