This is Bound to End in Tears

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  • Lat-Literal
    Guest
    • Aug 2015
    • 6983

    The post above is a stand alone but there is scope for some editorial comment here. First, there is a tendency - I will put it no more strongly than that - for all sides to present Britain and the British as somehow distinct in their concerns and all other nationalities as having an entirely different agenda which is in sync with that of EU. What is written is just one of millions of examples which proves this is not the case. This is neither an argument for the EU or against it. It simply says that much as nations or sections of nations can be in line in their support for what has been done by the EU so they can be in line in opposition to it or, to pursue the softer middle road, in their interpretation of it. Next, connections of a symbolic nature are easily made to underpin a political point, eg "Boris Johnson is proven in a number of circumstances to have uttered falsehoods. Boris is against Britain's membership of the EU (although in truth he is best described as a remainer who chose to take a different line overnight) and, therefore, symbolises that cause." I do not see that in Kate Hoey who is a true individual with what to my mind are peculiar attitudes on hunting or Labour's John Mann in whom I find much to admire or the Green Party's Jenny Jones. What I see in Johnson is the symbol of the fanciful over-ambitious politician. There are several anywhere at any time, be it Jeffrey Archer, Ken Livingstone, Emmanuel Macron, or in Italy a self confessed clown.

    On the procedural points, this matter ultimately straddled the Governments of Blair, Brown, Cameron and May. That is pretty ludicrous when it took less than a week for 27 countries to supposedly read nearly 400 pages on Britain's withdrawal and decide that every single word of it was just fine and needed no scrutiny. The EU drags its feet. It may well be that it does mostly when it doesn't want to take action that would imply that it had originally been wrong. The absence of any explanatory text unlike that which often accompanies Statutory Instruments conveys to me an element of aloofness and bad grace. But to go back to the beginning, Mr Wicks was able to say that the Government agreed with the Commission and at least imply heavily that it didn't agree with the Commission because the wording was loose. It all depended on whether you took note of the exemption application procedure and felt it was adequate or rather thought that what was needed was a specific derogation clause. Politicians can wiggle in that sort of space so as to change their line from one day to the next. Of course, we also need clarity when talking about the view of the EU or the EU Commission to know where that is coming from and to what extent it is official or could be considered such.

    This, though, is not entirely or even mainly the fault of the EU - and I surprised you there. No. Just as with domestic law, it is the full process which matters. It was for the EU here to relay clearly its intentions to Governments. It was for Governments to note them and to convey those intentions to anyone with a potential interest. It was for anyone with a potential interest to relay their concerns back to Governments, whether there was a formal consultation process or not, and for Governments to make wise decisions on the validity or otherwise of what was being said to them and to convey anything of substance on to the EU. Should there be awkwardness at the European level on what has been raised, that requires follow-up. More dialogue with - let's use their word - "stakeholders" and if needed more pursuance "upward" politically. Much of what is presented on pipe organs suggests that there were failures in some or all of these stages including where the proposals emanated in Europe. A lack of imagination in determining scope. A focus on what were thought to be the priority areas. Inadequate communication. Such things happen - they happen in purely domestic affairs too - and one would expect them to on occasion. It is human frailty as well as a characteristic of huge bureaucracies. What should not in any circumstances occur is the delay of umpteen years to adequately sort it out, especially when the text is being altered in other ways.
    Last edited by Lat-Literal; 26-01-19, 17:52.

    Comment

    • oddoneout
      Full Member
      • Nov 2015
      • 9152

      It may have taken a while but at least the unintended consequence for pipe organs was given due consideration and resolved(along with other issues that emerged) rather than being ignored as of no importance.

      Comment

      • Dave2002
        Full Member
        • Dec 2010
        • 18009

        Originally posted by Lat-Literal View Post
        On the procedural points, this matter ultimately straddled the Government's of Blair, Brown, Cameron and May. That in anyone's thinking is pretty ludicrous when it took less than a week for 27 countries to supposedly read nearly 400 pages on Britain's withdrawal and decide that every single word of it was just fine and needed no scrutiny.
        Is that last sentence supposed to be pro EU (speed reading, comprehension, competence?) or against (a hint that nobody really read any of it, or just skim read it?)?

        Comment

        • french frank
          Administrator/Moderator
          • Feb 2007
          • 30255

          Not sure what we're discussing now. I thought we'd moved on from organ pipes as being a matter now settled, and that back in 2006 it was made clear by the Commission that, whatever the legal reading of the Directive (here or anywhere else), they wished organ pipes to be excluded.

          The further legal point suggested to me (it was a legal opinion but not fact) that, like blue passports and the 2004 decision to immediately open the UK labour market to "A8" migrants, the matter of EU law's "supremacy" over UK law seems to have been the decisions/non-action of the UK, not impositions by the EU.

          Boris Johnson is extremely relevant here, in that he peddled as many euromyths as he could - for his own personal enjoyment.
          Last edited by french frank; 26-01-19, 18:22.
          It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

          Comment

          • Lat-Literal
            Guest
            • Aug 2015
            • 6983

            Originally posted by oddoneout View Post
            It may have taken a while but at least the unintended consequence for pipe organs was given due consideration and resolved(along with other issues that emerged) rather than being ignored as of no importance.
            Yes indeed.

            And no if I have a different interpretation of your words "may have taken" (it did) and "a while" ( a week can be a long time in politics).

            Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
            Is that last sentence supposed to be pro EU (speed reading, comprehension, competence?) or against (a hint that nobody really read any of it, or just skim read it?)?
            It is a critique either of member states or a system which could encourage member states to be overly dependent on the advice of higher ups who say "trust me". I could quote senior politicians in EU countries who supported the WA on the basis that they "trust Mr Barnier". The nations which are likely to be most susceptible are the small ones with limited resources.

            Comment

            • Dave2002
              Full Member
              • Dec 2010
              • 18009

              Originally posted by Lat-Literal View Post
              It is a critique either of member states or a system which could encourage member states to be overly dependent on the advice of higher ups who say "trust me". I could quote senior politicians in EU countries who supported the WA on the basis that they "trust Mr Barnier". The nations which are likely to be most susceptible are the small ones with limited resources.
              A lot of the issues are really related to trust. Though why should we not trust the EU people - or would we rather trust the people who currently "work" in Westminster?

              Comment

              • Lat-Literal
                Guest
                • Aug 2015
                • 6983

                Originally posted by french frank View Post
                Not sure what we're discussing now. I thought we'd moved on from organ pipes as being a matter now settled, and that back in 2006 it was made clear by the Commission that, whatever the legal reading of the Directive (here or anywhere else), they wished organ pipes to be excluded.

                The further legal point suggested to me (it was a legal opinion but not fact) that, like blue passports and the 2004 decision to immediately open the UK labour market to "A8" migrants, the matter of EU law's "supremacy" over UK law seems to have been the decisions/non-action of the UK, not impositions by the EU.

                Boris Johnson is extremely relevant here, in that he peddled as many euromyths as he could - for his own personal enjoyment.
                But whoever it was in the Commission who provided opinion, they could and would say that, wouldn't they, if and when they were asked and pipe organs hadn't hitherto even been considered. They would have sensed them as being a popular cause. If someone had said to them "we have got a lot of people complaining that it doesn't seem to specifically apply to some awful contraption containing lead which can be found at the end of every street", they could and would have said that they didn't support such things being exempt, sensing exemptions for those would be unpopular. Until and unless there was a specific exemption, it was all a matter of interpretation by who? By whoever, and left within the scope of a need to apply for individual exemptions. With this in mind, one thing that always surprises me is that we talk so often about the EU "banning" things, not entirely without justification, and yet I was told many years ago about distinctions between English law and, say, French law. One law outlines what you can do, thereby leaving it to you to join the dots on what is not enabled, and the other outlines what it is you can't do. Only a lawyer could advise if this creates attitudinal confusion when it comes to EU law being drafted and then nationally applied.

                It does seem to me that interpretation is a big problem. It also applies to more significant issues as you when mentioning passports etc imply. Currently, Mr Barnier and Mrs May agree that the UK is legally obliged to pay £39 billion in association with Britain leaving EU. Mr Barnier says he will sue us if it isn't paid. But Mr Redwood points out that Mr Barnier has a tendency to speak against things that won't happen for his own political gain. Gung ho voices about not paying any of it are purely on the backbenches. The Government has never said it would not pay what it's required to by law. Mr Redwood also says that is £30 billion rather than £39 billion in his interpretation. If Mr Barnier sues for the other £9 billion, he will lose.

                On Mr Johnson's "enjoyment", the common consensus is that both campaigns in the referendum were poor. They were almost as poor as those in most British general elections. Mr Blair and Mr Brown said in their manifestos that they would protect the NHS from privatisation. They then privatised considerable sections of the NHS. Mr Clegg said that he would never abolish student grants. He then abolished student grants for the sake of being in Government. He also told us that we would have a referendum on proper proportional representation. He didn't even hold out on that one. And Mrs May was presented in all the papers, by all opponents both inside and outside her party, and by a general public whipped up into outrage that she would steal the money in people's properties at the point when they needed to pay for care homes. In actuality, she had merely proposed a fourfold increase in the amount of money from those homes which home owners and their families could keep. Had that not occurred, she'd now have a majority of 100 and Brexit would have been concluded long ago.
                Last edited by Lat-Literal; 26-01-19, 19:08.

                Comment

                • Lat-Literal
                  Guest
                  • Aug 2015
                  • 6983

                  Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
                  A lot of the issues are really related to trust. Though why should we not trust the EU people - or would we rather trust the people who currently "work" in Westminster?
                  I do not simply trust people who work in Westminster but rather prefer scrutiny. The electorate has scrutiny of them if and when it wants it 24/7 via news and BBC Parliament which even features committees which themselves are there to scrutinize. If they don't want it, there are still elections and accountability. The European Parliament is not scrutinized in one thousandth of that way by the media for at most one gets 30 second snippets of what they do. Always it is the same people. Juncker and others unelected are normally in appearance and the focus is mostly on them. Plus Nigel Farage. Anyone would think they and Farage are all it amounts to, other than the interventions of Guy V. More specifically, Mr Barnier isn't scrutinized and he isn't accountable to you or me. He is the figure who appears only in a form that indicates he is key. Nor is Angela Merkel who has more say in these affairs than any individual MEP or Macron or, currently, Leo Varadkar who also have more say. They are not Europe. They are other countries' leaders. But not all. Name the Portuguese PM. You can't.

                  For months now, we have been told that a backstop is needed to prevent a hard border. Both Barnier and Varadkar have refused point blank to admit that they would feel obliged to put up a hard border in the event of no deal. The first muttered it a year ago and then pushed it away. To some extent, he is in denial. It was another EU official who was overt about it in Dublin last week, after which Mr Coveney was overheard to whisper that he agreed and then Varadkar came clean in Davos because he had to. What this means is that we were all being led to believe that the EU and the Republic had to protect Eire from any possibility of Britain putting in a hard border. That was the implication although we said we wouldn't do. Here I see the Irish Government as being a puppet of the EU although we would all be better off with a Fianna Fail government. In contrast, I find Mr Barnier's position offensive.

                  It would have been offensive enough simply to have been told that we wouldn't honour what we said we would honour but on top of this there is the backstop and now an admission that the EU would dictate that Mr Varadkar put in a border between the Irish and the Irish. Now, both parties say that it is Britain's fault. We are forcing them into having to put up such a border. It is absolute nonsense and utterly disgraceful. They can do entirely what they want. But what we are seeing here is the extent of the EU and the Irish Republic's genuine concerns about the island of Ireland itself being demarcated. It extends only so far as money implications are felt to need priority - and anything beyond that turns out to have been political humbug. If I were an Irish resident, I would be looking to make my objections to Barnier and Varadkar/Coveney known in the EU poll in May, and many will by voting Sinn Fein.
                  Last edited by Lat-Literal; 26-01-19, 21:54.

                  Comment

                  • Dave2002
                    Full Member
                    • Dec 2010
                    • 18009

                    The programme Inside Europe: 10 Years of Turmoil on BBC2 tonight was very interesting

                    The inside story of how David Cameron tried - and failed - to tackle the Europe question.

                    Comment

                    • oddoneout
                      Full Member
                      • Nov 2015
                      • 9152

                      Now, both parties say that it is Britain's fault. We are forcing them into having to put up such a border. It is absolute nonsense and utterly disgraceful.
                      Sorry Lats I have to disagree with you there - it is Britain's fault that the issue has arisen in the first place.

                      Comment

                      • Bryn
                        Banned
                        • Mar 2007
                        • 24688

                        If anyone wants to follow the goings on in the European Parliament, all they have to do is Google "European Parliament televised". Would that the UK's parliamentary activity was so widely covered.

                        Comment

                        • Dave2002
                          Full Member
                          • Dec 2010
                          • 18009

                          Originally posted by Bryn View Post
                          If anyone wants to follow the goings on in the European Parliament, all they have to do is Google "European Parliament televised". Would that the UK's parliamentary activity was so widely covered.
                          BBC Parliament?

                          Comment

                          • MrGongGong
                            Full Member
                            • Nov 2010
                            • 18357

                            Originally posted by oddoneout View Post
                            Sorry Lats I have to disagree with you there - it is Britain's fault that the issue has arisen in the first place.
                            Yup

                            Deciding to leave an organisation then complaining that the people running it are being "sooooooo unfair" (as many in the UK seem to be doing) just makes the UK seem like a country full of self-obsessed teenagers in the Harry Enfield style.
                            The UK can't "take control" of the border and then decide not to have one at all.... and it's NOT about tracking goods on lorries or anything of the sort. Those who bang on about "technological solutions" really need to get out of their parallel universe where everything works perfectly.

                            Comment

                            • Anastasius
                              Full Member
                              • Mar 2015
                              • 1842

                              Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
                              Yes - but what do we find in reality? Unless your house is at the end of a long spur, or close to a substation, where odd things can happen, I bet that the measured voltage is as near as d**n it 240 V, as it has been for a very long while.

                              240/230= 1.0435 approx, so within the percentage “EU driven” tolerance.

                              220/230 = 0.9565 approx so 220 V supplies are also within the “tolerance” limits.
                              Thankfully mine's closer to 255v on a good day.
                              Fewer Smart things. More smart people.

                              Comment

                              • french frank
                                Administrator/Moderator
                                • Feb 2007
                                • 30255

                                Originally posted by oddoneout View Post
                                Sorry Lats I have to disagree with you there - it is Britain's fault that the issue has arisen in the first place.
                                The UK has settled a Withdrawal Agreement with the EU, all the things that it wants to have - but including the backstop on the Irish border which it doesn't.

                                But it now wants either an agreed end date for the backstop, or the right to end it unilaterally.

                                At which point, it will successfully have picked off all the cherries with none of the 'unacceptable' bits. It will then be in a position that no other Third Country has.
                                It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                                Comment

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