This is Bound to End in Tears

[Beef Oven!]

Greece's main problem - it seems to me - is the country's lack of a strong industrial, eg wealth-creating, base, together with its dependence on tourism. Greece's is a mainly agrarian economy, and thereby difficult to sustain in "first world" terms without being part of the larger economic bloc that is the EU. Implementation of a strong state-owned sector needs a strong working class movement based in a productive sector - one capable of coming up with alternative plans of production to those hinged on short-term market success, which is wedded to the imponderables of periodic overproduction peculiar to a capitalist system, and in a position to implement them.

One has to start somewhere - the main medium and long-term underminings of such a system being the power of dominant powers to charge exorbitant prices for imported products unable to be manufactured domestically, as Cuba has shown since the 1959 Castro revolution. This is the consequence, in part deliberate, of keeping third world countries in hoc to first world dominated trading arrangements (which are not really deals from the pov of the developing (sic) countries) which provide cheap resources, both material and human, which are then deprived to them.

Being in the Eurozone has artificially inflated its unit labour cost and prevented it from devaluing its currency in the face of cheaper equivalent tourism options like Turkey. Arguably the public sector cost inflation was singularly caused by an unrealistically high currency value.

[Serial_Apologist]

First point, agreed. Second point, not all member states are equal.

...as I try to illustrate in my #45. These are STRUCTURAL inequalities, intrinsic to the imbalances inbuilt into the system as regulated by the powerful countries and blocs. In all probably they won't be sorted until one large country (in economic terms) breaks away and aligns its trading to build symbiotic relationships with countries perpetually at the mercy of the world's most powerful interests.

[Beef Oven!]

...as I try to illustrate in my #45. These are STRUCTURAL inequalities, intrinsic to the imbalances inbuilt into the system as regulated by the powerful countries and blocs. In all probably they won't be sorted until one large country (in economic terms) breaks away and aligns its trading to build symbiotic relationships with countries perpetually at the mercy of the world's most powerful interests.

A Marxist analysis would describe it that way.

[teamsaint]

...as I try to illustrate in my #45. These are STRUCTURAL inequalities, intrinsic to the imbalances inbuilt into the system as regulated by the powerful countries and blocs. In all probably they won't be sorted until one large country (in economic terms) breaks away and aligns its trading to build symbiotic relationships with countries perpetually at the mercy of the world's most powerful interests.

So, like hard brexit then ?

[Serial_Apologist]

Being in the Eurozone has artificially inflated its unit labour cost and prevented it from devaluing its currency in the face of cheaper equivalent tourism options like Turkey. Arguably the public sector cost inflation was singularly caused by an unrealistically high currency value.

Yes but you're still seeing al this in terms of the (il)logic of existing power relations on a world scale, which, through currency and other speculations, is the ultimate definer of the perpetual condition of monetary instability on which all the other problems we're talking about rest.

[Beef Oven!]

So, like brexit ?

Probably not, because we will still have a very close trading relationship with the EU. The 'break-off' is mainly political .......... If I may temporarily remove the superstructure from the economic base .........

[teamsaint]

Probably not, because we will still have a very close trading relationship with the EU. The 'break-off' is mainly political ..........

Sorry, I edited my post, so it makes more sense, hopefully.

[Beef Oven!]

Sorry, I edited my post, so it makes more sense, hopefully.

Well yes, only a clean Brexit makes sense. All else is a fudge. My point remains the same.

[Serial_Apologist]

So, like brexit ?

Well, yes, in a single word! It would take a while to establish the prerequisites for this to work, such as more transparent diplomatic relations leading to hopefully sustainable agreements. Sustainable in every meaning of the term.

[Joseph K]

The system is fair. It works on the basis that most people pay in more than they take out and a minority of people will take out more than they put in. In that sense, we're all alright Jack (whatever you meant by that).

You told me I shouldn't knock a system which I personally do rather well out of. This is wrong, I simply have been provided a comfortable existence that befits someone with a serious mental health illness. And if I had done well out of the system - which is totally unfair, with thousands homeless, millions of children in poverty and gross levels of inequality - you imply that I should only care about whether I've done well which is redolent of Thatcher's 'there's no such thing as society', and catastrophically sociopathic and obnoxious at that.

[Beef Oven!]

You told me I shouldn't knock a system which I personally do rather well out of. This is wrong, I simply have been provided a comfortable existence that befits someone with a serious mental health illness. And if I had done well out of the system - which is totally unfair, with thousands homeless, millions of children in poverty and gross levels of inequality - you imply that I should only care about whether I've done well which is redolent of Thatcher's 'there's no such thing as society', and catastrophically sociopathic and obnoxious at that.

There is society and we're all part of it. And we're very lucky to have a system that has such a safety net as you describe. I'm all for being positive and seeing our glass as half full rather than half empty. You are an example of how well the system works. We should be pleased about having a fair and humane system.

Additionally, I must say that as much as I have no time for xenophobes, I am more troubled by Oikophobes.

[Joseph K]

There is society and we're all part of it. And we're very lucky to have a system that has such a safety net as you describe. I'm all for being positive and seeing our glass as half full rather than half empty. You are an example of how well the system works. We should be pleased about having a fair and humane system.

Additionally, I must say that as much as I have no time for xenophobes, I am more troubled by Oikophobes.

Sounds to me like you are unaware of the many disgusting injustices perpetrated by the current government e.g. their malice in spending more money on denying disabled people benefits than they would have done simply giving them their benefits! Their tax cuts for the rich and cuts to social security for the most vulnerable in society simply do not befit a developed nation such as the UK. It is deeply uncivilised - indeed, barbaric. Hence why the UN called the UK out on our egregious levels of child poverty and malicious treatment of disabled and sick people.



So, the people in power are hacking a way at the safety net! I suppose you think we should be thankful that they haven't taken it away entirely eh?

[Dave2002]

I dont necessarily disapprove Dave. I want to pass the modest property that I have to my kids.But , and allowing for tax being a complicated area, I don’t think it makes for healthy economics for some people to inherit £450 k completely tax free, when by comparison, many graduates pay deductions rates of around 40% ( plus pension deductions ) on very modest incomes, just as an example.

So what proportion of a person’s wealth should be passed on to their kids? Or a cat’s home? What about people who have long term dependents - should they be exempt? Should all the wealth go back to the state, and if so, why?

[Dave2002]

One has to start somewhere - the main medium and long-term underminings of such a system being the power of dominant powers to charge exorbitant prices for imported products unable to be manufactured domestically, as Cuba has shown since the 1959 Castro revolution. This is the consequence, in part deliberate, of keeping third world countries in hoc to first world dominated trading arrangements (which are not really deals from the pov of the developing (sic) countries) which provide cheap resources, both material and human, which are then deprived to them.

Cuba can’’t even produce and sell products it is able to produce effectively to its own domestic market. For example domestic coffee production.

[teamsaint]

So what proportion of a person’s wealth should be passed on to their kids? Or a cat’s home? What about people who have long term dependents - should they be exempt? Should all the wealth go back to the state, and if so, why?

I don't know. Tax isn't " fair". but it can be made more, or less fair. It seems reasonable to me that in general people shouldn't pay more tax on what they have to work for, than on money that they just get given.

People who are dependent on others might receive more money from the tax that the state collects.