This is Bound to End in Tears

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  • Bryn
    Banned
    • Mar 2007
    • 24688

    Oops. I had taken the UK standard PD to be 240V. However, https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/...lation/27/made makes it clear that the standard is 230V.

    Comment

    • Lat-Literal
      Guest
      • Aug 2015
      • 6983

      Originally posted by Bryn View Post
      Oops. I had taken the UK standard PD to be 240V. However, https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/...lation/27/made makes it clear that the standard is 230V.
      Oh ok - thanks, Bryn.

      BBC News Update

      "Irish Troops could return to Irish border, warns Varadkar"

      Irish troops could return to the border in the event of a botched Brexit, the Irish prime minister has warned. Taoiseach Leo Varadkar said a hard border could "involve people in uniform... possibly a police presence, or an army presence to back it up". Mr Varadkar added that Ireland had been "victimised" by the Brexit process...…..Speaking to Bloomberg TV at the World Economic Forum in Davos, Mr Varadkar said the backstop was needed to stop the enforcement of visible border between Northern Ireland and the Republic...… Mr Varadkar said the onus was on London to find a solution, adding that Dublin had constantly been asked to compromise on a number of issues...… On Thursday, Mr Varadkar said the UK would find it "very difficult" to do trade deals after Brexit if it has not resolved the Irish border issue. He added that Ireland, by contrast, would continue to benefit from the EU's trade deals.

      Meanwhile:

      The Central Bank of Ireland has warned a no-deal Brexit could lead to "immense" challenges for the Irish economy. In its first quarterly report of the year, it stated that the economy could grow by 4.5% this year, but that may fall to 1.5% in a no-deal scenario. A "potentially large depreciation of sterling" and more expensive food because of tariffs is also predicted.


      Well, isn't this interesting.

      Mr Varadkar certainly sounds like a man who is singing from the EU hymn sheet. It's Britain's fault. He wants the backstop. A lot of terrible things could happen with no deal. And yet what I am hearing in his words - "victim"; having had to make "compromises" - is the beginnings of a rift between the Government of the Republic and the EU. When he talks about troops, he is not at all a happy man. He doesn't want his own troops - or police - on the border. He talks up his economy in the event of a no deal but will already know that his banks think differently. In reality, his sense of victimhood appears to me to be about being caught here between the EU and Brexit. The compromises he has made in order to accommodate Brexit have been required by the EU and he is realising they may ultimately backfire on him but not the rest of Europe. I am not going to suggest here that the Republic now goes back to the EU with a view to arguing for another look at the WA. Who am I to have a view? But whatever his latest looks like, I will say it sounds to me as if that is what it is about to do.

      Comment

      • Dave2002
        Full Member
        • Dec 2010
        • 18049

        Originally posted by Bryn View Post
        Oops. I had taken the UK standard PD to be 240V. However, https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/...lation/27/made makes it clear that the standard is 230V.
        Yes - but what do we find in reality? Unless your house is at the end of a long spur, or close to a substation, where odd things can happen, I bet that the measured voltage is as near as d**n it 240 V, as it has been for a very long while.

        240/230= 1.0435 approx, so within the percentage “EU driven” tolerance.

        220/230 = 0.9565 approx so 220 V supplies are also within the “tolerance” limits.

        Comment

        • MrGongGong
          Full Member
          • Nov 2010
          • 18357

          Originally posted by Dave2002 View Post
          Yes - but what do we find in reality? Unless your house is at the end of a long spur, or close to a substation, where odd things can happen, I bet that the measured voltage is as near as d**n it 240 V, as it has been for a very long while.

          240/230= 1.0435 approx, so within the percentage “EU driven” tolerance.

          220/230 = 0.9565 approx so 220 V supplies are also within the “tolerance” limits.
          Last time I checked my voltage (I have a "vintage" Boss outboard effects unit that uses transformed AC to clock the way the delay works so it very sensitive to fluctuations in voltage and current) it was 232 v

          Comment

          • french frank
            Administrator/Moderator
            • Feb 2007
            • 30526

            Originally posted by Lat-Literal View Post
            So much stuff is done. Do this. Learn that in the next 24 hours. Get this completed by Friday. Even by the most junior people on average salaries. There isn't a lot of time to question whether the EU requires it or often any real need to unless there is good reason to be on the back foot.
            It's made clear that EU Directives are no more than general (minimum) standards to be achieved. It is entirely up to each member state what meaures they take to achieve them. People may remember the time when there was unease about the EU's Directive on hazardous substances which it seemed was to have a devastating affect on the lead pipes in historic organs. I wrote to my MEP about it (I still have the email correspondence) and he spoke to the EU Commission. They assured him that organ pipes would not in any way be affected by the Directive. He then spoke to the UK's Department for Trade and Industry who insisted (apparently in spite of the EU assurances) that it would. The MEP then had to have a meeting with the DTI to try to persuade them that the EU did not agree with the DTI interpretation of their EU legislation … Then we went through much the same rigmarole with gut strings for instruments.
            Originally posted by Lat-Literal View Post
            This is an interesting article for those of us who think that after any Brexit the Conservatives could only hope to win an election with policies very close to the centre.
            The Guardian:
            Heidi Allen (a remainer) - 'I've absolutely had enough': Tory MP embarks on anti-austerity tour with Frank Field': https://www.theguardian.com/society/...austerity-tour
            I posted that link on my Facebook page this morning, together with the following BBC News quote:

            'The voluntary support given to food banks is "rather uplifting" and "shows what a compassionate country we are", Tory MP Jacob Rees-Mogg has said.'
            It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

            Comment

            • MrGongGong
              Full Member
              • Nov 2010
              • 18357

              Apprently there was a discussion at the ABO conference in Belfast today about the impact of this on MUSIC.
              Before they had (or are having at the moment) a speech from our chum Scrote
              Why on earth they would ask him in the first place ?
              aaah well ...

              Comment

              • Lat-Literal
                Guest
                • Aug 2015
                • 6983

                Originally posted by french frank View Post
                It's made clear that EU Directives are no more than general (minimum) standards to be achieved. It is entirely up to each member state what meaures they take to achieve them. People may remember the time when there was unease about the EU's Directive on hazardous substances which it seemed was to have a devastating affect on the lead pipes in historic organs. I wrote to my MEP about it (I still have the email correspondence) and he spoke to the EU Commission. They assured him that organ pipes would not in any way be affected by the Directive. He then spoke to the UK's Department for Trade and Industry who insisted (apparently in spite of the EU assurances) that it would. The MEP then had to have a meeting with the DTI to try to persuade them that the EU did not agree with the DTI interpretation of their EU legislation … Then we went through much the same rigmarole with gut strings for instruments.
                Are you sure that the misinterpretation originated in Government?

                It appears from this link that it was muddled by Parliament's intervention.



                (and don't look now but I think there is now something in the pipe line about wood used for traditional pianos!)

                Originally posted by french frank View Post
                I posted that link on my Facebook page this morning, together with the following BBC News quote:

                'The voluntary support given to food banks is "rather uplifting" and "shows what a compassionate country we are", Tory MP Jacob Rees-Mogg has said.'

                Comment

                • Serial_Apologist
                  Full Member
                  • Dec 2010
                  • 37872

                  Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
                  Apprently there was a discussion at the ABO conference in Belfast today about the impact of this on MUSIC.
                  Before they had (or are having at the moment) a speech from our chum Scrote
                  Why on earth they would ask him in the first place ?
                  aaah well ...
                  It's what I would describe as the SCRUTONization of political discourse which is affecting the political climate of this country at the present time.

                  Comment

                  • vinteuil
                    Full Member
                    • Nov 2010
                    • 12964

                    Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
                    It's what I would describe as the SCRUTONization of political discourse which is affecting the political climate of this country at the present time.
                    ... from today's Evening Standard, further Scruton news -

                    Prickly as a hedgehog, Sir Roger Scruton is a philosopher who thinks he knows a thing or two about beauty. Last November he was appointed chair of the Government’s new Building Better, Building Beautiful Commission, a deeply weird operation whose main belief seems to be that nimbys will accept more housing in their backyards as long as its style harks back to classical Greece or Rome in a manner that will “fit around a church, a green and a manor house”.



                    .

                    Comment

                    • french frank
                      Administrator/Moderator
                      • Feb 2007
                      • 30526

                      Originally posted by Lat-Literal View Post
                      Are you sure that the misinterpretation originated in Government?

                      It appears from this link that it was muddled by Parliament's intervention.

                      https://edm.parliament.uk/early-day-motion/30301
                      Good find. I cannot be sure where the misunderstanding happened, merely that it occurred. I was looking back at the correspondence and this is what my MEP wrote, and it seems to be 'the government' rather than the DTI specifically who were mistaken:

                      1) 28 March 2006 21:51

                      Dear [french frank]

                      Thank you for your email of 22nd March regarding pipe organs.

                      I am aware that here in the South West, from Truro in the West to Salisbury in the East and Gloucester in the North, there are many beautiful and historic cathedrals which people come from far and wide to visit.

                      The European Commission has stated that the legislation in question will not affect pipe organs in the United Kingdom. Nevertheless, I do share your concerns about this issue and have written accordingly to both the Department for Trade and Industry and the European Commission, asking for further clarification that traditional pipe organs will not be covered by the legislation, which is intended to reduce quantities of harmful substances in circulation.

                      I will of course revert to you directly I have received a reply.

                      Yours sincerely,
                      Graham Watson MEP
                      Member of the European Parliament for South West England and Gibraltar

                      2) 18 May 2006 15:54

                      Dear [french frank]

                      I write further to previous correspondence concerning pipe organs. You contacted me recently regarding concerns that the EU Waste Electrical and Electronic Equipment (WEEE) and Restriction of Hazardous Substances (RoHS) Directives would prevent the future repair and manufacture of pipe organs containing lead. I replied that I understood that the legislation had not been intended to cover pipe organs but that I had written to both the European Commission and the Department for Trade and Industry for clarification.

                      By way of an update, I have received a reply from the European Commission, but not from the Department of Trade and Industry.

                      The interpretation of the legislation by the UK government would have had the effect of subjecting UK pipe organs to both Directives since they contain both lead and electric pumps. However the European Commission does not share the UK’s interpretation.

                      Officials from the Department of Trade and Industry are due to meet with Commission officials next month to agree a clear exemption for pipe organs from the scope of the legislation, which will also remove the need for organ builders to apply regularly for derogations.

                      I will keep an eye on the situation and will endeavour to keep you updated as any further developments arise.

                      Yours sincerely,
                      Graham Watson MEP
                      Member of the European Parliament for South West England and Gibraltar
                      It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                      Comment

                      • Dave2002
                        Full Member
                        • Dec 2010
                        • 18049

                        Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
                        Last time I checked my voltage (I have a "vintage" Boss outboard effects unit that uses transformed AC to clock the way the delay works so it very sensitive to fluctuations in voltage and current) it was 232 v
                        That’s really interesting. I didn’t know that was likely - last time I measured it was 240 IIRC. Kettles will take longer to boil, then.

                        Comment

                        • oddoneout
                          Full Member
                          • Nov 2015
                          • 9315

                          More on lead in pipe organs.

                          The second sentence of the comment from Mr Smith (section in bold) is pertinent.

                          Comment

                          • Bryn
                            Banned
                            • Mar 2007
                            • 24688

                            Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
                            Last time I checked my voltage (I have a "vintage" Boss outboard effects unit that uses transformed AC to clock the way the delay works so it very sensitive to fluctuations in voltage and current) it was 232 v
                            Not as bad as thoe old synchronous mains-driven clocks that were only correct at midnight. The 50Hz frequency of the mains varies through each 24hours. The requirement is for 4,320,000 cycles per 24 hours. However, https://wwwhome.ewi.utwente.nl/~ptde...ains-2018.html

                            Comment

                            • oddoneout
                              Full Member
                              • Nov 2015
                              • 9315

                              This is not such good news though? See Page 3

                              Comment

                              • Bryn
                                Banned
                                • Mar 2007
                                • 24688

                                Originally posted by oddoneout View Post
                                This is not such good news though? See Page 3
                                https://consult.defra.gov.uk/waste-a...ocument%20.pdf
                                A case of all hands to the pump, then. Even organs with hydraulic systems such as the Willis at Union Chapel, Islington, use electricity to pump the water.
                                Last edited by Bryn; 25-01-19, 19:27. Reason: Typo

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