Chechen Persecution Of LGBTQ People

[Beef Oven!]

The BBC reports more bad news concerning the persecution of LGBTQ people in Chechnya

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-46871801

But Chechen leader Ramzan Kadyrov reckons the allegations are "complete lies and don't have an ounce of truth in them".

What a charming man .........

[Serial_Apologist]

He should be told where he can put his finger.

[Dave2002]

Chechnya has a population of around 1.4 million people - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya

LGBT figures from other countries are only estimates, but indicative data can be found here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogr...ntation#Sweden

and here (US) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_d..._United_States

It doesn't seem likely that Chechnya will be greatly out of line with other countries, so one might anticipate that at least 2.5% (5% of the males) of the Chechnya population would be affected in some way - that's 35000 people. This may be denied by leaders and others, but that doesn't make the situation any different.

I have friends who would identify with those, but fortunately in the UK now there is at least tolerance.

[Beef Oven!]

Chechnya has a population of around 1.4 million people - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya

LGBT figures from other countries are only estimates, but indicative data can be found here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demogr...ntation#Sweden

and here (US) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_d..._United_States

It doesn't seem likely that Chechnya will be greatly out of line with other countries, so one might anticipate that at least 2.5% (5% of the males) of the Chechnya population would be affected in some way - that's 35000 people. This may be denied by leaders and others, but that doesn't make the situation any different.

I have friends who would identify with those, but fortunately in the UK now there is at least tolerance.

Bit more than tolerance Dave. In the uk it is accepted as a normal, naturally occurring phenomenon in our species.

[Pulcinella]

Bit more than tolerance Dave. In the uk it is accepted as a normal, naturally occurring phenomenon in our species.

Sadly not everywhere in the UK, yet: try on the football terraces, for example, which is a huge reason for footballers not to feel comfortable 'coming out'.

[Dave2002]

Sadly not everywhere in the UK, yet: try on the football terraces, for example, which is a huge reason for footballers not to feel comfortable 'coming out'.

Indeed, though I don't go to football - many years since I went to a match. I would like to think that there is more than tolerance, and the law also protects LGBT people, but that doesn't mean that everyone is fully accepting of those views.

[oddoneout]

Bit more than tolerance Dave. In the uk it is accepted as a normal, naturally occurring phenomenon in our species.

Acceptance doesn't necessarily mean it is considered in those terms. The chances of a family member being rejected may be much lower and attitudes within the workplace may be improving but to say that's because everyone accepts it as normal or natural I would dispute. Legislation may provide protection but can't of itself change people's minds; only time, familiarity and better understanding achieve that.

[Beef Oven!]

Acceptance doesn't necessarily mean it is considered in those terms. The chances of a family member being rejected may be much lower and attitudes within the workplace may be improving but to say that's because everyone accepts it as normal or natural I would dispute. Legislation may provide protection but can't of itself change people's minds; only time, familiarity and better understanding achieve that.

Well, you don't get unanimity on anything. There will always be a minority of people who go against the popular grain. But I think you should be more generous in attitude. For example, I wouldn't say attitudes within the workforce may be getting better, I would say they definitely are much better (comparing to a couple plus of decades ago). The current position in the UK is something to celebrate, with so many gay people coming out in the sporting and entertainment world etc. It certainly is so very much better than the seemingly medieval position in Chechnya (which is the subject this thread was started about, but it quickly has turned onto a negative view of the UK).

[french frank]

It certainly is so very much better than the seemingly medieval position in Chechnya (which is the subject this thread was started about, but it quickly has turned onto a negative view of the UK).

I suppose because most people's experience and opinions are based on this country, and we're limited in our knowledge about Chechnya. I think the inference from the discussion would be that things are much better here than there.

[Beef Oven!]

I suppose because most people's experience and opinions are based on this country, and we're limited in our knowledge about Chechnya. I think the inference from the discussion would be that things are much better here than there.

But when we have had similar discussions about the allegedly* homophobic so called "gay propaganda laws" in Russia, we had no difficulty in ignoring the domestic scene and piling in on Putin, Gergiev et al. So I don't think it's that, ff.

Could be the tendency towards oikophobia that many forum members are afflicted with, and the insouciance that immediately sets in when the perpetrator is not a western male.

*for the record, and I shouldn't have to say this, I personally think that legislation is homophobic and dangerous.

[oddoneout]

Well, you don't get unanimity on anything. There will always be a minority of people who go against the popular grain. But I think you should be more generous in attitude. For example, I wouldn't say attitudes within the workforce may be getting better, I would say they definitely are much better (comparing to a couple plus of decades ago). The current position in the UK is something to celebrate, with so many gay people coming out in the sporting and entertainment world etc. It certainly is so very much better than the seemingly medieval position in Chechnya (which is the subject this thread was started about, but it quickly has turned onto a negative view of the UK).

I'm not trying to be negative, I've seen how things have improved over my lifetime. However not all parts of society or the country move at the same rate as London. What may be seen as normal and naturally occurring in large diverse urban areas won't be seen that way everywhere in the country and not by all ages. I would also suggest that workplace acceptance varies according the kind of work.
It would be a sorry state of affairs if the UK couldn't do better than Chechnya in such matters; the latter's turbulent recent history is hardly conducive to protecting minority interests.

[Beef Oven!]

I'm not trying to be negative, I've seen how things have improved over my lifetime. However not all parts of society or the country move at the same rate as London. What may be seen as normal and naturally occurring in large diverse urban areas won't be seen that way everywhere in the country and not by all ages. I would also suggest that workplace acceptance varies according the kind of work.
It would be a sorry state of affairs if the UK couldn't do better than Chechnya in such matters; the latter's turbulent recent history is hardly conducive to protecting minority interests.

I don't think Chechnya's turbulent history has much to do with its apparent homophobia. I'd say it's deep-seated in its culture.

[oddoneout]

I don't think Chechnya's turbulent history has much to do with its apparent homophobia. I'd say it's deep-seated in its culture.

As in many(most?) other cultures, historically and currently, but trying to change that stands a better chance - all other things being equal - in a country that's not had to cope with the breakup of a controlling regime and fights for independence and national identity.

[Beef Oven!]

As in many(most?) other cultures, historically and currently, but trying to change that stands a better chance - all other things being equal - in a country that's not had to cope with the breakup of a controlling regime and fights for independence and national identity.

Are we talking about the same Chechnya? Chechnya is NOT trying to establish any kind of tolerance towards LGBTQ people. It's doing the opposite!

Because it was seeking to throw off Soviet rule it had a greater tendency to be homophobic? How come it's even worse now that it has autonomy - since about 1990? Are you busking this as you go along? Making excuses for this foul regime?

[oddoneout]

Are we talking about the same Chechnya? Chechnya is NOT trying to establish any kind of tolerance towards LGBTQ people. It's doing the opposite!

Because it was seeking to throw off Soviet rule it had a greater tendency to be homophobic? How come it's even worse now that it has autonomy - since about 1990? Are you busking this as you go along? Making excuses for this foul regime?

No I'm not, I'm responding to your comments, but clearly I'm not phrasing those responses well enough, as to you they seem to mean something other than I intended, so I'll stop now.