A Point of View...Roger Scruton

[Beef Oven!]

I did listen to this, and was left wondering if Mr Scruton would prefer us to go back to insulting people, claiming at the same time that this was surely what we won World War Two for, or making similar such excuses. Normally Point of View provides a welcome break following the Sunday morning service on Radio 4, before turning on the telly to experience Andrew Marr and his political chums.

Straw man argument. It's getting worse.

[Beef Oven!]

I disagree with RS’ conclusions but he is erudite overall in a way which is now unfashionable not to say deemed unacceptable, and for that if nothing else I read him with great interest.

His world view is different from mine and I disagree with many of his conclusions. But I respect and admire his erudition and his reasoning. Which is in stark contrast to the unmitigated bile, prejudice and bigotry that Radio 3 forum members are displaying on this thread.

[Beef Oven!]

Now, I do love Western Art Music BUT to pretend that it's "unique and unparalleled" is simply ignorant tosh (and I don't mean Peter)

'Western Art Music' is unique and unparalleled. What's the problem? (and stop copying my Peter Tosh pun)

[MrGongGong]

This is neither "erudite" or displays "reasoning"
it simply demonstrates ignorance and lack of any understanding of the history and contexts of music
Which is fine, in some ways, BUT what Scrote (and I'll call him what I like as i'm sure he is big enough to cope !) does is to hide his opinionated ramblings behind a veneer of "education". I have to sometimes work with youngsters who use his faux-arguments as justification for their own ignorance. It's not really a question of "taste" as he presents his taste as absolute.

Another pertinent example is the American composer John Cage. With a singular skill for self-promotion, yet no prior evidence of musical competence, Cage made his reputation with his celebrated piece 4’33” (1952) — a happening in which a pianist in concert dress sits silently at the piano for exactly four minutes and 33 seconds. On the strength of this and a few similar pranks, Cage presented himself as an original composer, ‘putting in question’ the entire tradition of Western concert music. Critics hastened to endorse his high self-opinion, hoping to share in the glory of discovering a new and original genius. The Cage phenomenon quickly became established as part of the culture, able to call upon subventions from the cultural institutions, and recruiting a raft of imitators for whom, however, it was too late to cause a stir as Cage had done, by doing nothing.

[MrGongGong]

'Western Art Music' is unique and unparalleled. What's the problem? (and stop copying my Peter Tosh pun)

What's the problem?

Gagaku, Indian Music, Persian Music, Gamelan etc etc etc

All musics might be "unique" but there are considerable parallels (and between Schubert and Rammstein)

[Beef Oven!]

What's the problem?

Gagaku, Indian Music, Persian Music, Gamelan etc etc etc

All musics might be "unique" but there are considerable parallels (and between Schubert and Rammstein)

You're halfway there. Correct, it's not a judgmental thing. It's not that Western Art Music is better, or that there aren't other types of music, it's simply that there is no music that is comparable to the way it has developed from early/medievil/Baroque, through being written down and passed on and performed through classical, romantic and modern musical epochs; with the sheer volume of material. There is no equivalent.

[MrGongGong]

You're halfway there. Correct, it's not a judgmental thing. It's not that Western Art Music is better, it's simply that there is no music that is comparable to the way it has developed from early/medieval/medieval through being written down and passed on and performed through classical, romantic and modern musical epochs; with the sheer volume of material. There is no equivalent.

Sorry, chum,
this is NONSENSE

and for Scrote it's ALL about "judgement" which is one reason why he is so discredited amongst people who actually KNOW about music (and I don't mean me)

[Bryn]

"with no prior evidence of musical competence"

Now that takes the biscuit for bogus erudition. By the time he composed 4'33", Cage had a catalogue of such works as the Sonatas and Interludes, the String Quartet in Four Parts, the 3 Constuctions, Amores, the Concerto for Prepared Piano and Small Ordhestra, Music of Canges and over 50 other post-apprentiship works under his belt. That is Scrote's so-called erudition for you. He is an intellectual fraud.

[MrGongGong]

"with no prior evidence of musical competence"

Now that takes the biscuit for bogus erudition. By the time he composed 4'33", Cage had a catalogue of such works as the Sonatas and Interludes, the String Quartet in Four Parts, the 3 Constuctions, Amores, the Concerto for Prepared Piano and Small Ordhestra, Music of Canges and over 50 other post-apprentiship works underhis belt. That is Scrote's so-called erudition for you. He is an intellectual fraud.

Like I said, full of ............................

[Beef Oven!]

Sorry, chum,
this is NONSENSE

It's a simple fact, which I guess troubles you as it doesn't fit in with your self-loathing.

and for Scrote it's ALL about "judgement" which is one reason why he is so discredited amongst people who actually KNOW about music (and I don't mean me)

Discredited? What do you mean by this quaint term?

[Beef Oven!]

"with no prior evidence of musical competence"

Now that takes the biscuit for bogus erudition. By the time he composed 4'33", Cage had a catalogue of such works as the Sonatas and Interludes, the String Quartet in Four Parts, the 3 Constuctions, Amores, the Concerto for Prepared Piano and Small Ordhestra, Music of Canges and over 50 other post-apprentiship works under his belt. That is Scrote's so-called erudition for you. He is an intellectual fraud.

What's with the name-calling? Bit childish to follow MrGG's infantile lead, isn't it?

[MrGongGong]

It's a simple fact, which I guess troubles you as it doesn't fit in with your self-loathing.

Bullsh*t
I didn't think you did "facts" anyway

[oddoneout]

Gosh, he does seem to arouse strong feelings - the intellectual's Marmite?

[Bryn]

What's with the name-calling? Bit childish to follow MrGG's infantile lead, isn't it?

Pay attention. It was I, not MrGG, who first used the soubriquet "Scrote" in this thread.

[Serial_Apologist]

Gosh, he does seem to arouse strong feelings - the intellectual's Marmite?

More like an indigestible trifle, I would think.

Probably the only way to settle this argument is to go back to the broadcast in question, and take Scruton's points apart, one-by-one. We'd need a transcript, but that seems to be what's being asked for.