A Point of View...Roger Scruton

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  • Bryn
    Banned
    • Mar 2007
    • 24688

    #16
    Originally posted by Beef Oven! View Post
    Hardly a witch-hunt, is it Bryn?
    I reckon stuff like the following fits the bill:

    The problem for modern music arose, however, from the way in which, thanks in part to Schoenberg, in part to Adorno and his followers, and in part to the Darmstadt school, ideas came to displace feelings as the source of musical creation. The twelve-tone serial technique gave a new theory of music, and a new way of learning to arrange pitched sounds in sequence without reference to melody or harmony. Adorno’s critical attack on the “regression in listening,” and on the exhausted nature of the old tonal sequences, made composers afraid to write tunes, for fear that the result would be merely “banal.” And then came Boulez and Stockhausen, clever charlatans who were able to intimidate the world of music lovers into believing that there could be no future for music if Boulez and Stockhausen were not put in charge of it. The fact that the resulting music was entirely without appeal was put out of mind as irrelevant. The point was the charm of the theory, not the sound of the result. A concert-hall from which the audience has fled is not a cultural disaster if a group of state-subsidized zombies is making noises at one end of it.

    We have lived through all that, and the whole thing was founded on a mistake. Music is not an arrangement of “pitched sounds” in mathematical permutations. It is a dynamic process in virtual space, a form of movement in which static sounds become goal-directed tones, and simultaneous pitches are magically blended into chords. The whole enterprise of acoustical research, which for Boulez and Stockhausen spelled the way forward into the music of the future, was based on a false conception of the musical ear. It was precisely by building on theory rather than intuitive understanding that the music of the future ceased to be music, and became instead a dance of spectres in a mausoleum of sounds.

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    • Beef Oven!
      Ex-member
      • Sep 2013
      • 18147

      #17
      Originally posted by Bryn View Post
      I reckon stuff like the following fits the bill:
      Fits the bill? Remember, you accused him of 'witch-hunting'. He has expressed an opinion that neither of us agrees with - that's not a 'witch-hunt'.

      Once we get over the banal fact that people don't like Roger, we are not left with much reasoned opinion.

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      • MrGongGong
        Full Member
        • Nov 2010
        • 18357

        #18
        Originally posted by Bryn View Post
        I reckon stuff like the following fits the bill:
        I reckon that fit's my comment in #14 perfectly

        This
        It was precisely by building on theory rather than intuitive understanding that the music of the future ceased to be music, and became instead a dance of spectres in a mausoleum of sounds.
        might be a perfect example (for pedogogic porpoises) of total b*llsh*t

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        • Bryn
          Banned
          • Mar 2007
          • 24688

          #19
          Originally posted by Beef Oven! View Post
          Fits the bill? Remember, you accused him of 'witch-hunting'. He has expressed an opinion that neither of us agrees with - that's not a 'witch-hunt'.

          Once we get over the banal fact that people don't like Roger, we are not left with much reasoned opinion.
          Of course its a witch-hunt. Adorno, Stockhausen, Boulez and co. are held up as destroyers of music and its European traditions. It's nonsense but it's still very much a case of witch-hunting.

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          • MrGongGong
            Full Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 18357

            #20
            Originally posted by Bryn View Post
            Of course its a witch-hunt. Adorno, Stockhausen, Boulez and co. are held up as destroyers of music and its European traditions. It's nonsense but it's still very much a case of witch-hunting.
            Some people like to pretend to champion people they think are "radical" as a kind of stance
            Scrote is a bit of a joke really and why he is given airtime beats me?
            I guess there are so few "intellectuals" with his (often very suspect) views that the BBC feels the need to include him for the sake of balance
            it's a bit like Nigel Lawson talking about climate change

            Comment

            • Beef Oven!
              Ex-member
              • Sep 2013
              • 18147

              #21
              Originally posted by Bryn View Post
              Of course its a witch-hunt. Adorno, Stockhausen, Boulez and co. are held up as destroyers of music and its European traditions. It's nonsense but it's still very much a case of witch-hunting.
              It doesn't amount to a witch-hunt. A witch hunt is a campaign, not simply the business of disagreeing about a subject and expressing that disagreement.

              Comment

              • Beef Oven!
                Ex-member
                • Sep 2013
                • 18147

                #22
                Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
                Some people like to pretend to champion people they think are "radical" as a kind of stance
                Scrote is a bit of a joke really and why he is given airtime beats me?
                I guess there are so few "intellectuals" with his (often very suspect) views that the BBC feels the need to include him for the sake of balance
                it's a bit like Nigel Lawson talking about climate change
                Why be so rude and call him Scrote? I may not agree with you, but I wouldn't dream of taking the piss out of what you look like or what your name sounds like. Take a leaf out of my book, sonny.

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                • Joseph K
                  Banned
                  • Oct 2017
                  • 7765

                  #23
                  His Aesthetics of Music is terrible.

                  Comment

                  • Beef Oven!
                    Ex-member
                    • Sep 2013
                    • 18147

                    #24
                    Originally posted by Joseph K View Post
                    His Aesthetics of Music is terrible.
                    Is that a fact, or an opinion?

                    Comment

                    • MrGongGong
                      Full Member
                      • Nov 2010
                      • 18357

                      #25
                      Originally posted by Joseph K View Post
                      His Aesthetics of Music is terrible.
                      Agreed

                      Don't forget this (if you want a chuckle)



                      For example

                      By the term classical music we mean the Western tradition of art music, which, together with the symphony orchestra, represents an achievement unique and unparalleled among cultures in this or any other age.
                      Now, I do love Western Art Music BUT to pretend that it's "unique and unparalleled" is simply ignorant tosh (and I don't mean Peter)

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                      • Richard Tarleton

                        #26
                        When someone talks and writes rubbish about something one does know quite a bit about, one is inclined to doubt what they have to say about everything else.....

                        (hunting with hounds )

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                        • Richard Barrett
                          Guest
                          • Jan 2016
                          • 6259

                          #27
                          Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post
                          it's a bit like Nigel Lawson talking about climate change
                          Exactly - the strange idea that "my ignorance is as good as someone else's knowledge." I have plenty of facts to back up my description of this person as "odious" and "bigoted" which I shall list when I have a spare moment.

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                          • muzzer
                            Full Member
                            • Nov 2013
                            • 1194

                            #28
                            I disagree with RS’ conclusions but he is erudite overall in a way which is now unfashionable not to say deemed unacceptable, and for that if nothing else I read him with great interest.

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                            • Serial_Apologist
                              Full Member
                              • Dec 2010
                              • 37872

                              #29
                              I did listen to this, and was left wondering if Mr Scruton would prefer us to go back to insulting people, claiming at the same time that this was surely what we won World War Two for, or making similar such excuses. Normally Point of View provides a welcome break following the Sunday morning service on Radio 4, before turning on the telly to experience Andrew Marr and his political chums.

                              Comment

                              • Beef Oven!
                                Ex-member
                                • Sep 2013
                                • 18147

                                #30
                                Radio 3 Forum members don't like Roger Scruton, but it's not coming over in a way that casts them in a good light.

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