A Point of View...Roger Scruton

[Beef Oven!]

Once a teacher, always a teacher. I like to pass on what I know and (occasionally) what I think. If you were referring to me!

That's fine, so long as he's not calling me a troll.

[french frank]

I'm not convinced Imam/Messianic/Christian/Judaism similarity or otherwise is strong enough to demonstrate a fundamental theological difference.

A great deal of the Shia-Sunni conflict was political/historical; but I think the Sunni concept of the 'Oneness' of Allah was thought to be transgressed by the spiritual qualities attributed to the imam by the Shia. The conflict these days seems to me to be, if anything, more theological than political.

That seems a very close analogy with the Judaic-Christian split, of which the result is the central importance to the Christian faith of the teaching of the Messiah. Historically, that was an important cause of the violence against the Jews.

There should be more than that Wiki page.

There is, but that was the quickest route for someone who allegedly knew nothing about the subject!

[oddoneout]

So it's effectively about being quiet and/or no-violent. Quiet and/or non-violent is liberal/moderate Islam and Loud and forceful is the other one?

Possibly. Being moderate doesn't generally sit well with being loud, forceful, violent in my view, regardless of what the issue is. And actually I probably shouldn't have strayed into this debate, haven't learnt my lesson from previous exchanges, so I'll concede defeat and leave you to it.

[Beef Oven!]

Possibly. Being moderate doesn't generally sit well with being loud, forceful, violent in my view, regardless of what the issue is. And actually I probably shouldn't have strayed into this debate, haven't learnt my lesson from previous exchanges, so I'll concede defeat and leave you to it.

It's not a battle! If you have something to say, you should say it and not worry.

[gradus]

I thought your earlier post was a bit rash, but it's good that you own up to that, albeit indirectly.

"All Muslims are guided by the Sunnah, but Sunnis stress its primacy. Shia are also guided by the wisdom of Muhammad's descendants through his son-in-law and cousin, Ali."

Whilst I am no expert, the above quote from your link gives a nod towards what I am saying in that there is no fundamental division in Islam in terms theology; the difference lies in the politics of succession. If there was a league table of religions concerning the extent of 'monolithicity', Islam would lift the trophy every time!

On a serious note, it is not instructive to view the business of the 'monolithicness' of Islam through western European eyes, accustom to schisms and the like that we are. Any Sunni or Shia Muslim would be astounded if you told them their religion was capable of being divided based on the very existence of a disagreement about succession or primacy of text. It's a very Christian-centric view that you are taking here, I would say.

Since neither of us are experts in the subject, I'll leave it at that.

[french frank]

"All Muslims are guided by the Sunnah, but Sunnis stress its primacy. Shia are also guided by the wisdom of Muhammad's descendants through his son-in-law and cousin, Ali."

But the importance of Ali marks the division between Sunni and Shia based in authority (just as for Roman Catholics authority resides with the Pope while Protestants reject his authority). According to the Shia, Ali was appointed by Allah to be the successor to Muhammad, the imam, the religious and spiritual leader. And so on for his successors. For the Sunni, Ali was one of the four caliphs; but whoever held the power, albeit by force, was considered Muhammad's successor. As for practice, this is a useful note on the differing concepts of justice, which is one of the most bothersome aspects for non Muslims.

But all this becomes academic when all Muslims are demonised for being Muslims.

[Richard Barrett]

Returning to Roger Scruton, here's something pretty bizarre I found in his review of a book about music (Surprised by Music, by Robert Reilly, an ex-miltary man and Senior Advisor for Information Strategy in the Office of the Secretary of Defense under the Bush II administration, whose other books include diatribes against Islam and homosexuality):

"If I were to single out the features of Western civilization that justify our defense of it, and which seem to be so palpably absent from the barbarism with which the Islamists wish to replace it, the tradition of classical music would be high on the list. (…) a deliberate attempt has been made to bring that tradition to an end. The noise industry has conquered the faculties of musicology and composition, has displaced harmony and counterpoint from the curriculum, and set up shop with acoustic laboratories in the heart of every music school."

Leaving aside the fact that (as far as I know, which is some way further probably than Prof Scruton does) there exists no faculty of musicology or composition where harmony and counterpoint are not on the curriculum, and the fact that no "deliberate attempt" has been made to bring the tradition of classical music to an end, least of all by Pierre Boulez, mentioned several times elsewhere in the review as a "clever charlatan", this attempt to tar Islam and the "noise industry" with the same brush by mentioning them thus in the same breath is intellectual dishonesty of a high order, is it not.

[MrGongGong]

Returning to Roger Scruton, here's something pretty bizarre I found in his review of a book about music (Surprised by Music, by Robert Reilly, an ex-miltary man and Senior Advisor for Information Strategy in the Office of the Secretary of Defense under the Bush II administration, whose other books include diatribes against Islam and homosexuality):

"If I were to single out the features of Western civilization that justify our defense of it, and which seem to be so palpably absent from the barbarism with which the Islamists wish to replace it, the tradition of classical music would be high on the list. (…) a deliberate attempt has been made to bring that tradition to an end. The noise industry has conquered the faculties of musicology and composition, has displaced harmony and counterpoint from the curriculum, and set up shop with acoustic laboratories in the heart of every music school."

Leaving aside the fact that (as far as I know, which is some way further probably than Prof Scruton does) there exists no faculty of musicology or composition where harmony and counterpoint are not on the curriculum, and the fact that no "deliberate attempt" has been made to bring the tradition of classical music to an end, least of all by Pierre Boulez, mentioned several times elsewhere in the review as a "clever charlatan", this attempt to tar Islam and the "noise industry" with the same brush by mentioning them thus in the same breath is intellectual dishonesty of a high order, is it not.

I think (as i've probably said too many times) that there is a tendency to dignify this kind of thing with politeness when there is a perfectly servicable way of describing it.....ignorant bullshit

If only there were "acoustic laboratories in the heart of every music school" or does he mean practice rooms with pianos ?

Max/MSP is a gateway drug

[Richard Barrett]

If only there were "acoustic laboratories in the heart of every music school"

Mine does have seven studios that could be so described, actually, one with a Wavefield Synthesis system installed, another with one of its walls entirely covered by a custom-built modular synthesizer, and so on. Prof Scruton would need to bring a spare pair of underpants were he ever to visit, especially after being shown around by one of our several Iranian electronic-composition students.

[MrGongGong]

Mine does have seven studios that could be so described, actually, one with a Wavefield Synthesis system installed, another with one of its walls entirely covered by a custom-built modular synthesizer, and so on. Prof Scruton would need to bring a spare pair of underpants were he ever to visit, especially after being shown around by one of our several Iranian electronic-composition students.

Wavefield Synthesis, you say

I guess it looks a bit like this ?

[Richard Barrett]

Wavefield Synthesis, you say

I guess it looks a bit like this ?

Yes except there are 192 of them.

[Beef Oven!]

But the importance of Ali marks the division between Sunni and Shia based in authority (just as for Roman Catholics authority resides with the Pope while Protestants reject his authority). According to the Shia, Ali was appointed by Allah to be the successor to Muhammad, the imam, the religious and spiritual leader. And so on for his successors. For the Sunni, Ali was one of the four caliphs; but whoever held the power, albeit by force, was considered Muhammad's successor. As for practice, this is a useful note on the differing concepts of justice, which is one of the most bothersome aspects for non Muslims.

We are going over old ground. You are putting a very western/Christian perspective on this. The reference to Protestants etc is a distraction.

The question is whether Islam is monolithic. "(of an organization or system) large, powerful, indivisible, and slow to change" OED. There is no dispute about the first, second and fourth parts of that definition. The divide between Sunni & Shia Muslims arises because Mohammed died without having appointed his successor. Sunnis believe it can be a confidant of the profit or other 'appropriate' person, Shias think it must be a relative. The ensuing political squabbles are all history as they say, not theological.

But all this becomes academic when all Muslims are demonised for being Muslims.

Best to avoid non sequiturs, especially ones with spurious assumptions.

[vinteuil]

.

... some nice tables here :

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https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/6/66/Islam_branches_and_schools.svg

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_schools_and_branches

.

[Beef Oven!]

As you can see, a branch cant be a division, by definition.

A school is a way of thinking and can't be a schism or a different paradigm. It doesn't divide.

Stubborn lot in here, aren't you?

[french frank]

Best to avoid non sequiturs, especially ones with spurious assumptions.

I give up. You're resorting to statements which are inaccurate. The "non-sequitur", if I am am correctly identifying what you are referring to, was an attempt to to prise the the discussion back from the purely factual to address the problem of people and organisations talking about "Muslims" as if they were clones of each other, evil and to be kept from our shores (and no, I'm not suggesting that you are saying the, merely that it is a problem - as one of your heroes appears to have recognised).

Right, back to the workshop and cutting dovetails. Lalalalalalalalalalalalal …