A Point of View...Roger Scruton

[french frank]

Does that chapter say that there is a difference between 'fundamentalists' and yer common or garden Muslim concerning say, homosexuality? I mean above and beyond throwing them off buildings and stuff like that.

No, it doesn't. But that's a good point. I'm not sure whether the Koran says anything about it or whether this is just one of those issues which became an issue in later times and for which an on the hoof doctrine was created.

The Koran appears simply to say that it is 'a sin' without specifying that it should be punished in any way - certainly not throwing people off high buildings and stoning them to death - that's Isis.

[Beef Oven!]

No, it doesn't. But that's a good point. I'm not sure whether the Koran says anything about it or whether this is just one of those issues which became an issue in later times and for which an on the hoof doctrine was created.

The Koran appears simply to say that it is 'a sin' without specifying that it should be punished in any way - certainly not throwing people off high buildings and stoning them to death - that's Isis.

From memory, off the top of my head, the Koran says that same gender sex is a sin. I doubt that a hoca, imam, theologians etc would say anything other than same gender sex is anything other than a punishable sin.

I would go further and say I bet that regular Muslims would not deviate from this.

[gradus]

What are the deep theological differences that you are relying on here?

I think this explains it better than I can: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16047709

[Beef Oven!]

I think this explains it better than I can: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-16047709

I thought your earlier post was a bit rash, but it's good that you own up to that, albeit indirectly.

"All Muslims are guided by the Sunnah, but Sunnis stress its primacy. Shia are also guided by the wisdom of Muhammad's descendants through his son-in-law and cousin, Ali."

Whilst I am no expert, the above quote from your link gives a nod towards what I am saying in that there is no fundamental division in Islam in terms theology; the difference lies in the politics of succession. If there was a league table of religions concerning the extent of 'monolithicity', Islam would lift the trophy every time!

On a serious note, it is not instructive to view the business of the 'monolithicness' of Islam through western European eyes, accustom to schisms and the like that we are. Any Sunni or Shia Muslim would be astounded if you told them their religion was capable of being divided based on the very existence of a disagreement about succession or primacy of text. It's a very Christian-centric view that you are taking here, I would say.

[french frank]

Any Sunni or Shia Muslim would be astounded if you told them their religion was capable of being divided based on the very existence of a disagreement about succession or primacy of text.

Would they? Do Koran and Hadith not differ in terms of 'primacy'? Returning to your point about the attitude to homosexuality. In Mohammed's time there were homosexual 'acts' (or 'lewd acts') between men as there were 'lewd acts' between men and women. There was not 'homosexuality' as we understand it today. This is why for many Islamic scholars Islam evolves. That may well mean that for ignorant masses 'nothing changes' (just as they clamour for the death of the blasphemer Asia Bibi). But the voice of moderate/liberal Islam is closer to being what Islam "is", in the way that moderate Christianity "is" more enlightened than fundamentalist Christianity (for which read fundamentalist Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists). We should have a better understanding than that, shouldn't we?

[Beef Oven!]

Would they?

Of course I meant that to be illustrative rather than definitive.

Do Koran and Hadith not differ in terms of 'primacy'?

Again, that goes back to my illustrative point. Differences like that are not the equivalent of differences in Christianity, for example. I would be surprised if followers would be happy to accept a theological schism on the back of it, whereas in Christianity that's exactly these things do head. It seems to me that Islam is a much straight-forward business, both in terms of theology and practise.

Returning to your point about the attitude to homosexuality. In Mohammed's time there were homosexual 'acts' (or 'lewd acts') between men as there were 'lewd acts' between men and women. There was not 'homosexuality' as we understand it today. This is why for many Islamic scholars Islam evolves. That may well mean that for ignorant masses 'nothing changes' (just as they clamour for the death of the blasphemer Asia Bibi). But the voice of moderate/liberal Islam is closer to being what Islam "is", in the way that moderate Christianity "is" more enlightened than fundamentalist Christianity (for which read fundamentalist Hindus, Sikhs and Buddhists). We should have a better understanding than that, shouldn't we?

I'm not sure what the difference might be between 'homosexuality' as we understand it today, and what it was in 6/7th century, in the Middle East. I presume that the homosexual acts were not sanctioned in Islam back then, as they are not now.

Who/what is the voice of moderate/liberal Islam? I am ignorant of any form of moderate/liberal Islam.

[oddoneout]

Who/what is the voice of moderate/liberal Islam? I am ignorant of any form of moderate/liberal Islam.

Those people who quietly get on with their lives without violence and/or strident belligerent(and questionable) interpretations of the Quran?

[Beef Oven!]

Those people who quietly get on with their lives without violence and/or strident belligerent(and questionable) interpretations of the Quran?

No, can't be that because it assumes that all Muslims who are illiberal/immoderate followers of Islam, necessarily become violent and don't quietly get on with their lives.

[oddoneout]

No, can't be that because it assumes that all Muslims who are illiberal/immoderate followers of Islam, necessarily become violent and don't quietly get on with their lives.

I did include and/or for a reason.

[Beef Oven!]

I did include and/or for a reason.

So it's effectively about being quiet and/or no-violent. Quiet and/or non-violent is liberal/moderate Islam and Loud and forceful is the other one?

[french frank]

Differences like that are not the equivalent of differences in Christianity, for example. I would be surprised if followers would be happy to accept a theological schism on the back of it, whereas in Christianity that's exactly these things do head. It seems to me that Islam is a much straight-forward business, both in terms of theology and practice.

Not really, because in questions of 'theology', or belief, there is real difference between the Shia and the Sunni, particularly in the attributes of the Shiite imam. Shia Islam is Messianic, whereas the Sunni reject the special status of the imam. To me, that seems very similar to the difference between Judaism and Christianity - which would never be confused as a single religion.

On 'practice' I am [even ] more vague but:

I'm not sure what the difference might be between 'homosexuality' as we understand it today, and what it was in 6/7th century, in the Middle East. I presume that the homosexual acts were not sanctioned in Islam back then, as they are not now.

I'm not sure I understand the full implication of that. The difference now would be that homosexuality is not seen as a matter of choice but an innate characteristic of some people. As such marriage is now progressively more widely 'sanctioned' (does that word have two opposing meanings?] as a human right. My understanding would be that in the early days of Islam it was not a question of 'what you were' but 'what you did'.

Who/what is the voice of moderate/liberal Islam? I am ignorant of any form of moderate/liberal Islam.

I was thinking of this.

[MrGongGong]

I think there is a bit of "Troll feeding" going on here

Personally, I find working in music with a wide variety of people from all belief systems and backgrounds is a good start at finding out stuff
I have recently worked with some folks in a school who said they liked what I did because it wasn't really music so not "haram" so look out for these children in the future with their weird noise music.

[Beef Oven!]

I think there is a bit of "Troll feeding" going on here

Personally, I find working in music with a wide variety of people from all belief systems and backgrounds is a good start at finding out stuff
I have recently worked with some folks in a school who said they liked what I did because it wasn't really music so not "haram" so look out for these children in the future with their weird noise music.

My word, Pappano's turned Turk!!?

[Beef Oven!]

I'm not convinced Imam/Messianic/Christian/Judaism similarity or otherwise is strong enough to demonstrate a fundamental theological difference.

The point about choice/innate homosexuality is interesting. I'd taken for granted that it's always been understood as innate, even if the powers that be would publicly have it otherwise. I need to think about that.

There should be more than that Wiki page.

Not really, because in questions of 'theology', or belief, there is real difference between the Shia and the Sunni, particularly in the attributes of the Shiite imam. Shia Islam is Messianic, whereas the Sunni reject the special status of the imam. To me, that seems very similar to the difference between Judaism and Christianity - which would never be confused as a single religion.

On 'practice' I am [even ] more vague but:

I'm not sure I understand the full implication of that. The difference now would be that homosexuality is not seen as a matter of choice but an innate characteristic of some people. As such marriage is now progressively more widely 'sanctioned' (does that word have two opposing meanings?] as a human right. My understanding would be that in the early days of Islam it was not a question of 'what you were' but 'what you did'.



I was thinking of this.

[french frank]

I think there is a bit of "Troll feeding" going on here

Once a teacher, always a teacher. I like to pass on what I know and (occasionally) what I think. If you were referring to me!