Gun Violence

[Cockney Sparrow]

.....This is perhaps not the place to move the topic on to generalities........

I agree. This thread started about the incident affecting Richard F and his colleagues and their families (and like others here - my sincerest sympathy for you and them).

I would rather see a separate thread with some of the latter posts transferred, or copied there (if that is possible). I agree the subject is worthy of discussion, although we won't be able to influence anything - a good proportion of the US population are not able to influence any restriction, either.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

I did wonder - but the Thread title seemed to suggest that a widening out of the specific incident might not be inappropriate or insensitive. I can easily open a new Thread and transfer Posts if Forumistas think that this would be more respectful.

[french frank]

I wasn't trying to generalise

Wasn't thinking about what you'd said, but what I was about to say, Dave2002. As for that point, I think Richard will have been assured of the deep sympathy and concern we all have in the current situation, for him and all others affected so grievously.

[richardfinegold]

I agree. This thread started about the incident affecting Richard F and his colleagues and their families (and like others here - my sincerest sympathy for you and them).

I would rather see a separate thread with some of the latter posts transferred, or copied there (if that is possible). I agree the subject is worthy of discussion, although we won't be able to influence anything - a good proportion of the US population are not able to influence any restriction, either.

Yes, but I started the thread with the intent of sparking a general discussion about Gun Violence, to get an English point of view.
It’s a Holiday here, and I have a house full of visitors, and of course it’s all that we have been talking about. I was attempting optimism, referencing Malcolm Gladwell, arguing that the Tipping Point may not be far off with respect to Gun Control, that enough anger and disgust has been provoked by these repeated outrages that enough Americans are actively seeking reform that it will become a mainstream cause. My family members don’t think that will ever occur

[Richard Barrett]

I was attempting optimism, referencing Malcolm Gladwell, arguing that the Tipping Point may not be far off with respect to Gun Control, that enough anger and disgust has been provoked by these repeated outrages that enough Americans are actively seeking reform that it will become a mainstream cause. My family members don’t think that will ever occur

People would probably have said that about slavery 200 years ago, or about hereditary rulers 400 years ago. Things don't stay the same over historical timespans. Certainly this won't change under the current US administration (something else people in most of the rest of the world tend to observe with horror).

[Dave2002]

Yes, but I started the thread with the intent of sparking a general discussion about Gun Violence, to get an English point of view.
It’s a Holiday here, and I have a house full of visitors, and of course it’s all that we have been talking about. I was attempting optimism, referencing Malcolm Gladwell, arguing that the Tipping Point may not be far off with respect to Gun Control, that enough anger and disgust has been provoked by these repeated outrages that enough Americans are actively seeking reform that it will become a mainstream cause. My family members don’t think that will ever occur

I think many people in the UK (not just England!) don't understand the USA and in particular the NRA. I can't speak for every UK citizen, but I think that many think the 2nd Amendment was "of its time", and for different circumstances than pertain today. It was hopefully never intended that it would allow citizens to buy and carry arms such as automatic rifles, machine guns etc.
What I can't understand is why some NRA members are so concerned about this "right". Some seem to think it's so that they can protect themselves "against the government" - if that ever turns bad. Seems crazy to me - because if the government ever turned really bad, a number of guys even armed with automatic rifles would be no match for the forces the government could deploy - rockets, tanks, aircraft etc. Do they think the 2nd amendment should be amended or reinterpreted further so that they could also oppose the government with similar weaponry? Seems very unrealistic.

The other concern is "what is a right?". Again the NRA people (and others) don't seem to understand that for the most part "rights" are administered by people. Possibly in previous centuries rights were thought of as something handed down by deities - some form of absolute rights which we are entitled to because of divine purpose and intervention, but surely nowadays most people realise that rights really only work because of a combination of general acceptance of a moral code, and enforcement by authorities (e.g governments). Rights do not (or should not exist) because someone may have written a few words on paper or parchment hundreds of years ago. Even if such papers exist, is it not up to present day people to question whether the words and content should have any relevance and force today, rather than blindly asserting "that is our right"?

So, why do people want to carry guns anyway? The US is a big country, and in parts it may make sense to have a gun in case of attack by wild animals. Maybe that should be allowed. In the UK guns are generally not allowed, particularly after one or two shooting incidents when gun control was strengthened significantly. I'm not sure what the status of guns for sport is in the UK now. I think farmers may still be allowed to have shot guns for shooting dogs which harrass sheep and other purposes. There are some people who are allowed to carry guns to shoot foxes and birds - but I think they have to be licensed operators.

I think Australia has quite tight gun laws, particularly after one incident. It looks as though the government there is not generally keen for the population there to know about that, because of concern over copy cat situations.

Norway had a terrible event, and it's posible that someone we knew was involved/affected. Nobody has found out what happened to him afterwards.

Yes - we do have knife crime in cities, mostly London and a few others, and there is some crime with guns, but compared with the US it seems to be at a low level. There may well be parts of the US where gun crime is at a very low level, and those parts may well be safer than some parts of the UK. Knives aren't good, but it's not possible to kill 50 to 100 people in a few minutes with knives.

I tend to agree with Richard B's view about the US at present, but in the longer term change could happen.

I hope you are enjoying the holiday weekend Richard, and that your discussions aren't too difficult. There's always music to listen to, after all.

[richardfinegold]

American Politics are replete with examples of what appear to be fringe movements becoming the Political Mainstream. Barry Goldwater ‘s Conservatism was thought to be Cro Magnon like in 1964 but became intellectual orthodoxy during the Regan and both Bush Presidencies. The Liberalism Of George McGovern was squashed by a Nixon landslide in 1972 but has become the bedrock platform of the Democratic Part since. As recently as a decade ago Gay Marriage was considered a Political Non Starter. Nor did most of my Parents Generation ever believe that Jim Crow or the tobacco companies would lose their grips.
Candidates advertised their antipathy to the NRA in our last election. I do believe that a Tipping Point for Gun Control will happen here. Unfortunately, it will probably require several more horrific massacres to be reached...

[Anastasius]

..... I'm not sure what the status of guns for sport is in the UK now. I think farmers may still be allowed to have shot guns for shooting dogs which harrass sheep and other purposes. There are some people who are allowed to carry guns to shoot foxes and birds - but I think they have to be licensed operators.

......

Late to this thread and first of all my sincere condolences to Richard.

To clarify the situation in the UK (well, England...I can't comment on the other countries where the rules might be different), there are two different licences/certificates - one for shotguns (shotgun licence) and another for firearms such as bolt-action rifles (firearm certificate). Anyone can apply for either or both subject to the persons' suitability, mental state etc, safe storage of the shotgun or rifle and a vetted place to shoot. Anyone applying will be vetted by the police, interviewed by the local firearms officer, doctors report etc. The rules for the firearm certificate being much more rigorous with two personal referees.

Other than target shooting on ranges etc, the most common use for rifles is vermin control. Shotguns likewise but also there is the pheasant/grouse/etc shooting.

For the record, I have held a firearms certificate for many years now and recently had it renewed and also with the option to purchase a larger calibre rifle as wild deer are becoming a nuisance.

Hope this clarifies the situation.

[Dave2002]

The world moves on ... http://time.com/longform/school-shoo...22%3a%22%22%7d