Gun Violence

[richardfinegold]

Thanks to all for who expressed sympathy. I have one slight amendment to my earlier post. The 25 year old that was shot to death as her elevator door opened in front of the shooter was a Pharmacy Intern, not a Technician, which means that she had recently completed a Ph.D. I don’t wish to diminish the accomplishments of her life. She was due to be married this spring. Her mother is a professional seamstress who was hand sewing her Wedding Dress. Such a stupid, meaningless waste.
The shooter had been kicked out of the Chicago Firefighter Academy four years previously for harassing Female students.
He then subsequently had a restraining order placed on him by another woman that he was threatening. Despite this, he was able to legally purchase 4 firearms in the last 4 years, and to recently obtain a concealed carry permit, which is theoretically more difficult to obtain. The NRA claims that background checks are supposed to limit the gun ownership to responsible individuals, a claim that would be ironically amusing if it wasn’t so f——— wrong.

[Bryn]

Thanks to all for who expressed sympathy. I have one slight amendment to my earlier post. The 25 year old that was shot to death as her elevator door opened in front of the shooter was a Pharmacy Intern, not a Technician, which means that she had recently completed a Ph.D. I don’t wish to diminish the accomplishments of her life. She was due to be married this spring. Her mother is a professional seamstress who was hand sewing her Wedding Dress. Such a stupid, meaningless waste.
The shooter had been kicked out of the Chicago Firefighter Academy four years previously for harassing Female students.
He then subsequently had a restraining order placed on him by another woman that he was threatening. Despite this, he was able to legally purchase 4 firearms in the last 4 years, and to recently obtain a concealed carry permit, which is theoretically more difficult to obtain. The NRA claims that background checks are supposed to limit the gun ownership to responsible individuals, a claim that would be ironically amusing if it wasn’t so f——— wrong.

A horrendous situation. Richard, if you get the opportunities, please relay the sympathies, condolences and outrage of we band of BBC Radio 3 listeners for over the Pond and further afield.

[Dave2002]

Thanks to all for who expressed sympathy. I have one slight amendment to my earlier post. The 25 year old that was shot to death as her elevator door opened in front of the shooter was a Pharmacy Intern, not a Technician, which means that she had recently completed a Ph.D. I don’t wish to diminish the accomplishments of her life. She was due to be married this spring. Her mother is a professional seamstress who was hand sewing her Wedding Dress. Such a stupid, meaningless waste.
The shooter had been kicked out of the Chicago Firefighter Academy four years previously for harassing Female students.
He then subsequently had a restraining order placed on him by another woman that he was threatening. Despite this, he was able to legally purchase 4 firearms in the last 4 years, and to recently obtain a concealed carry permit, which is theoretically more difficult to obtain. The NRA claims that background checks are supposed to limit the gun ownership to responsible individuals, a claim that would be ironically amusing if it wasn’t so f——— wrong.

They’d perhaps all still be alive, including the shooter, if much tighter control and help was made available, but the leader of the free world just thinks it’s sad, but a statistical “fact of life”, rather than actually trying to limit this.

Many of us in the UK just don’t understand this mentality. We have had shootings, as has Australia and Norway, but they are at a much lower level (generally - the Norway one was horrific) and most European countries and Commonwealth countries do try to limit the problems. Instead from the US we simply hear that “there are bad things in the world”, as if that is a good enough reason to do nothing.

Nevertheless we still need to focus on sympathy for the moment, otherwise some people might get really wound up.
As before - best wishes and condolences for those who have suffered and their friends and families.

[richardfinegold]

They’d perhaps all still be alive, including the shooter, if much tighter control and help was made available, but the leader of the free world just thinks it’s sad, but a statistical “fact of life”, rather than actually trying to limit this.

Many of us in the UK just don’t understand this mentality. We have had shootings, as has Australia and Norway, but they are at a much lower level (generally - the Norway one was horrific) and most European countries and Commonwealth countries do try to limit the problems. Instead from the US we simply hear that “there are bad things in the world”, as if that is a good enough reason to do nothing.

Nevertheless we still need to focus on sympathy for the moment, otherwise some people might get really wound up.
As before - best wishes and condolences for those who have suffered and their friends and families.

The Gun Rights Mentality is far from Universal here. I have never owned a firearm, nor do I wish to, and I believe polls show that the majority of Americans do not support gun ownership. The NRA is incredibly organized and motivated, and the worst case scenario of how a special interest group can manipulate a Democratic Society

[Richard Barrett]

The Gun Rights Mentality is far from Universal here. I have never owned a firearm, nor do I wish to, and I believe polls show that the majority of Americans do not support gun ownership.

Certainly. In all my time spent in various parts of the USA I've only ever seen firearms in shops. It seems though that the present administration sees the "solution" to the problem of guns is by arming more people, as Jayne mentioned. I hope you and your colleagues won't ever have to deal with a situation like this again.

[Beef Oven!]

So very sorry to hear of this tragedy Richard, my heart goes out to all.

Political Radical Islamists, the US extreme right and other assorted wrong-minded people kill, not the guns. I know many people in the US who own guns, including my own family, but they would not harm a fly. The solution must focus on the nut-cases, not their chosen method of execution. All the same, I think there are too many guns in Switzerland, Turkey, the USA etc and if there weren't so many guns, the world would be a better place.

[Dave2002]

Certainly. In all my time spent in various parts of the USA I've only ever seen firearms in shops. It seems though that the present administration sees the "solution" to the problem of guns is by arming more people, as Jayne mentioned. I hope you and your colleagues won't ever have to deal with a situation like this again.

I lived in California for a whle, and one night there were gunshots, and eventually helicopters flying over head. We stayed indoors, and hoped that nobody would come our way, or take a pot shot at our apartment - unlikely, but possible. It was about as scary as being in a tent in a safari park, and being aware of elephants outside, and also (we were told) one or more hippopotamuses the night after. In other words - quite scary - not something I'd want to repeat too often.

Having said that, in parts of Surrey over the years while we have lived there, there have been knife crimes, resulting in one person being very severely injured, and at least partially paralysed, and in another case - possibly a domestic event - someone not far from our house was shot dead in the day time in the street.

Working on the statistics though, these cases are insignificant compared with the US homicide cases.
Somewhat surprisingly though, gun related homicide cases in the US are IIRC "only" about half of the suicide cases, though in other countries the ratio of gun related suicides to homicides is far greater.

There are other countries which have appalling rates, though that's no excuse, even though some leading "politicians" might say so. Just because things are very bad elsewhere does not exonerate a bad situation in a country where one might at least have the power, and arguably even the duty, to reduce such things.

[Dave2002]

Political Radical Islamists, the US extreme right and other assorted wrong-minded people kill, not the guns. I know many people in the US who own guns, including my own family, but they would not harm a fly. The solution must focus on the nut-cases, not their chosen method of execution. All the same, I think there are too many guns in Switzerland, Turkey, the USA etc and if there weren't so many guns, the world would be a better place.

Absolutely disagree with this part of the selected text. [Your first sentence - the rest I largely agree with - the third sentence.]

If there were no guns, or far fewer, then there would be far fewer tragedies, or even accidents. Look up the statistics for children killed simply by playing with a gun which has been left lying around in a house (legally) or fired up into the air on New Years Day or Thanksgiving.

[Conchis]

Very sorry to hear of Richard's appalling ordeal.

I don't feel comfortable in societies with widespread gun deployment/ownership. Travelling around Israel was very upsetting at first, being confronted with teenagers (in the armed forces) wielding rifles, even though they'd obviously been trained to hold the firearms in non-threatening manner.

Whenever I hear of an American gun atrocity, I'm reminded of this scene:

https://youtu.be/3dBn3fW1ijU

And I don't think targeting 'nuts' is the answer: an apparently 'together' person can easily undergo a conversion, Falling Down-style, into someone with a desperate need to get 'even'. Bankruptcy, home repossession, divorce - when these things hit a person, it's easy for them to see the world as the enemy and if the instrument of vengeance can be had for a small financial outlay.....

[Padraig]

A horrendous situation. Richard, if you get the opportunities, please relay the sympathies, condolences and outrage of we band of BBC Radio 3 listeners for over the Pond and further afield.

Richard, condolences to you and to all at your hospital.
I would like to associate myself with Bryn's sentiments as expressed above.

[Beef Oven!]

Absolutely disagree with this part of the selected text. [Your first sentence - the rest I largely agree with - the third sentence.]

If there were no guns, or far fewer, then there would be far fewer tragedies, or even accidents. Look up the statistics for children killed simply by playing with a gun which has been left lying around in a house (legally) or fired up into the air on New Years Day or Thanksgiving.

Switzerland has 27 guns per person - they don't appear to be killing each other with them. We have about 5 per person and we kill, often. It's about how people are, not guns. When my children were young, they would not have been able to play with any guns that I owned.

[Dave2002]

Switzerland has 27 guns per person - they don't appear to be killing each other with them. We have about 5 per person and we kill, often. It's about how people are, not guns. When my children were young, they would not have been able to play with any guns that I owned.

Switzerland does indeed have a low rate of intentional homicide, though it is one of the lowest in the world. Actually I think there are quite low rates even in some parts of the USA, but the US has wide variation between regions.

See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o..._homicide_rate

US - 5.35 per 100,000
UK - 1.2 per 100,000
Switzerland - 0.54 per 100,000

That doesn't include "accidents", but does include also non gun related deaths.

[Serial_Apologist]

Switzerland has 27 guns per person - they don't appear to be killing each other with them. We have about 5 per person and we kill, often. It's about how people are, not guns. When my children were young, they would not have been able to play with any guns that I owned.

In the end it surely comes down to national cultural characteristics? In mentality terms Switzerland is broadly, I would argue from having worked there, by comparison with the States, a pacifistic* nation; the US a survivalist one.

(*Or should that be a pacific nation?)

[french frank]

US - 5.35 per 100,000
UK - 1.2 per 100,000
Switzerland - 0.54 per 100,000

That doesn't include "accidents", but does include also non gun related deaths.

This is perhaps not the place to move the topic on to generalities, but it appears to me that the factor that needs investigation is why the US seems (? to me?) to have so many random, multiple killings, and 'massacres', which are otherwise unconnected with criminal activity.

[Dave2002]

This is perhaps not the place to move the topic on to generalities, but it appears to me that the factor that needs investigation is why the US seems (? to me?) to have so many random, multiple killings, and 'massacres', which are otherwise unconnected with criminal activity.

I wasn't trying to generalise, but simply to get data which would be relevant. The data I linked to, assuming it was collected/collated well, should have included gun deaths along with every other type of intentional killing, and thus provided upper bound figures.

I know this is sensitive. Shall we put this topic on hold for a while then, or open a new thread? Perhaps take a lead from our OP.