Nick Gibb's weasel words

[Dave2002]

I couldn't agree more, but do you have to send kids to different schools to have their varying 'needs' met? A good, well resourced school should be able to cater for all sorts and conditions.

Many are not so good, nor well resourced - at least across all disciplines.

I gather there are a couple of Maths Schools in the UK [maybe others will know about these] to which only boffins go, and where the curriculum is pretty much maths and science. Is this a good idea? I think not.

I tend to agree - though I'm slightly biased as my background is largely in maths and science. A problem with some/many schools is that they are weak in maths and science areas. There are great misconceptions re maths and science, amongst teachers, politicians and the general public. It's not all about numbers or computing. Being good at numbers is not necessarily being good at maths. Basic knowledge is a good thing for most people, and should be achievable for a modest proportion of the population. This is not the same as knowing about other aspects of mathematics, such as (to list a few) the Jordan Curve theorem, fractal geometry, double integration, vector calculus, Goldbach's conjecture etc. Probably only a small percentage of the population would want to or need to know about any of these topics.

[teamsaint]

I think (and i'm just back from one in a very neglected and "deprived" part of West Yorkshire) you will find that ALL schools do this
it's just that some have to have classes of over 30 and not enough resources.

Yes, I know that very well indeed, since TOH spent her career working in a variety of schools including some in the most deprived areas of Hampshire. And the are very tough.
Oh and my kids went to state schools.
And so on and so on.
But I was talking about Independent schools, of which I have quite a bit of first hand experience, as it goes.

[Conchis]

Bringing back so-called 'selective education' will solve nothing and will only add to the country's problems.

Theresa May has not intention of bringing it back: her 'enthusiasm' for it 100 per cent fake, just designed to snare the support of the troglodytes in her own party.

Sadly, if you want your children to have a proper education, the only way you're going to ensure it is by teaching them yourself. You might argue this has always been the case, though.

[Dave2002]

Sadly, if you want your children to have a proper education, the only way you're going to ensure it is by teaching them yourself. You might argue this has always been the case, though.

No - your own children are very likely not going to take you seriously . Doesn't matter how good you are at the subject or teaching. Maybe swap teaching and kids with someone else might work though.

[Conchis]

No - your own children are very likely not going to take you seriously . Doesn't matter how good you are at the subject or teaching. Maybe swap teaching and kids with someone else might work though.

Most people have the idea that 'home education' involves the parents turning the living-room into a class-room, while the kids go stir-crazy, spending most of their life in the same space. This is no longer the case (it it ever was): H.E. is now managed by groups of parents who set up their own staff groupings to teach the relevant subjects and decide on syllabus, etc. The Tories were very keen on this idea (probably still are) because it 'saves money'. Labour was a lot less so. My own concerns would be about suitable vetting of parents.

[Dave2002]

My own concerns would be about suitable vetting of parents.

That's a really serious issue, both for child protection, and also for covering anything approximately like the national curriculum. Currently, AFAIK, there are hardly any checks - and there should be. The assumption might be that parents who want to do this are caring and able (across a range of subjects, and also with teaching skills), but it's possible that both of these assumptions are incorrect.

[Conchis]

That's a really serious issue, both for child protection, and also for covering anything approximately like the national curriculum. Currently, AFAIK, there are hardly any checks - and there should be. The assumption might be that parents who want to do this are caring and able (across a range of subjects, and also with teaching skills), but it's possible that both of these assumptions are incorrect.

Yes, it's a very serious reservation.

I can honestly say that if my mother hadn't given me extra tuition at home I would have left school at sixteen without qualifications, barely literate or numerate. The early schooling I got was hopelessly inadequate (and yes, my birthday IS in August).

[Dave2002]

Extra tuition, either from a family member, or friend or from a paid tutor can be helpful, if not overdone. Home schooling needs more of a commitment though. It can work, but in some cases it might turn out badly.

[ardcarp]

That's a really serious issue, both for child protection, and also for covering anything approximately like the national curriculum. Currently, AFAIK, there are hardly any checks - and there should be. The assumption might be that parents who want to do this are caring and able (across a range of subjects, and also with teaching skills), but it's possible that both of these assumptions are incorrect.

I think bringing up worries about 'child protection' is an irrelevance, and something of an insult to those families who decide to home educate their children. We have very close ties to a couple of Home Ed familes. (The parents are 'children' of close family friends.) For a start, it's a mistake to think that Home Ed kids don't mix with others. They do. There is a big Home Ed community which meets together to do sports, outings, drama, music, Forest School and all sorts of other activities which most in-school children just don't get. Further, when you (as an adult) speak to Home Ed kids, there is something quite special about them. For a start they speak to you as 'equals', mainly because they haven't been 'spoken down to' by condescending teachers. Secondly they have a much wider experience of the world and a much more original and outside-the-box way of thinking. It is a decision of parents and children when/if to join the mainstream education system.

I speak as someone whose own children and grandchildren were Grammar School/University (in some cases Oxbridge) educated. I know therefore that this route isn't right for everyone, and I wish we had had the courage to provide a more creative and freewheeling route for some of them.

An amusing episode arose from one of the Home Ed families mentioned above. They recently moved to a different county, so Mum rang up County Hall to inform them that the kids were being Home Educated. She was put through...after some bemused faffing...to someone in the education department.

Mum: I thought I ought to inform you I'm home educating my children
Official: Er, yes?
Mum: I just wondered if you needed to know anything?
Official: Such as?
Mum: Why my children are not attending the local school.
Official: Well, they wouldn't if they're being taught at home.
Mum: Do you need to know anything about our compliance with the National Curriculum?
Official: No.
Mum: Or perhaps pay us a home visit to be sure everything's OK?
Official: We don't do that.


And that was it. 'Mum' by the way is a graduate and a qualified teacher, but that wasn't even asked about by 'The Official'.

[Conchis]

I think bringing up worries about 'child protection' is an irrelevance, and something of an insult to those families who decide to home educate their children. We have very close ties to a couple of Home Ed familes. (The parents are 'children' of close family friends.) For a start, it's a mistake to think that Home Ed kids don't mix with others. They do. There is a big Home Ed community which meets together to do sports, outings, drama, music, Forest School and all sorts of other activities which most in-school children just don't get. Further, when you (as an adult) speak to Home Ed kids, there is something quite special about them. For a start they speak to you as 'equals', mainly because they haven't been 'spoken down to' by condescending teachers. Secondly they have a much wider experience of the world and a much more original and outside-the-box way of thinking. It is a decision of parents and children when/if to join the mainstream education system.

I speak as someone whose own children and grandchildren were Grammar School/University (in some cases Oxbridge) educated. I know therefore that this route isn't right for everyone, and I wish we had had the courage to provide a more creative and freewheeling route for some of them.

An amusing episode arose from one of the Home Ed families mentioned above. They recently moved to a different county, so Mum rang up County Hall to inform them that the kids were being Home Educated. She was put through...after some bemused faffing...to someone in the education department.

Mum: I thought I ought to inform you I'm home educating my children
Official: Er, yes?
Mum: I just wondered if you needed to know anything?
Official: Such as?
Mum: Why my children are not attending the local school.
Official: Well, they wouldn't if they're being taught at home.
Mum: Do you need to know anything about our compliance with the National Curriculum?
Official: No.
Mum: Or perhaps pay us a home visit to be sure everything's OK?
Official: We don't do that.


And that was it. 'Mum' by the way is a graduate and a qualified teacher, but that wasn't even asked about by 'The Official'.

Yes, that's what I said in my earlier posting.

I think the point that Dave was making was that there has to be complete confidence in all the teaching 'staff' of a Home Ed community, both academically and ethically.

[Dave2002]

Yes, that's what I said in my earlier posting.

I think the point that Dave was making was that there has to be complete confidence in all the teaching 'staff' of a Home Ed community, both academically and ethically.

One of my younger relatives was home schooled for about year during his teens when his parents decided that the school he was at was not up to the job. He subsequently went to a somewhat better school to finish his secondary education.

I did ask why this was necessary, as I thought the school he was originally at had been classed as excellent, but in fact it turned out that (allegedly) standards had plummeted rapidly over a few years - arguably due to a change of leadership. His parents are both well qualified, and besides being graduates in science subjects one is also a qualified teacher.

There are other examples which I won't give here, where there are problems. The "interview" example given in msg 39 may be representative. While some parents may be able to provide a good environment, and a good standard of education for their children, and thus provide better education than a school, some are not able to do that, and it seems that there are no checks. If children are attending a school, and then fail to attend regularly, this is checked out, and there are legal responsibiities both on schools and on parents/guardians. However, if there are no enforced standards for home schooled children then although many may do well, there seems to be no legal responsibility or quality control. Why should there not be checks?

[MrGongGong]

The "National Curriculum" isn't compulsory for so called "Free schools" , "Independent schools" or even "Academies"

[oddoneout]

Under Section 437 of the Education Act 1996, the local authority must satisfy itself that parents/carers are fulfilling their duties regarding their child's education.

I believe there have always been considerable differences in the degree to which LAs monitor Home Ed children, and as with so many other things the financial constraints faced by councils almost certainly have had a bearing on what is or isn't done now.

[oddoneout]

The "National Curriculum" isn't compulsory for so called "Free schools" , "Independent schools" or even "Academies"

So, the way things are going the 'National' curriculum will only be taught in a minority of schools....

[MrGongGong]

So, the way things are going the 'National' curriculum will only be taught in a minority of schools....

Yes
and not the ones where our "leaders" send their children

Free and Independent schools also don't have to employ qualified teachers.