Nick Gibb's weasel words

[Beef Oven!]

And children who got places at the grammar schools might get a reasonable music education. It would still leave the majority in the same situation as now (or worse, with the grammar schools getting higher funding).

Not necessarily. It would allow secondary modern schools to concentrate on the less academic side of education, as they always used to, to good effect.

[DracoM]

"Music is very important in our schools"
yeah right

What a nasty little lying weasel.

This isn't good for my blood pressure and i'm not a violent man....... but

Lies lies and more lies

I don't often support MrGG, but on this occasion, I listened and absolutely echo his sentiments and language. It was as sick-making an interview with a govt minister I have heard in years. For once, too, Tom Service's incredulity was well-judged.

[pastoralguy]

I took early retirement as a staff nurse in the NHS back in March after 22 years gruelling service. I now support individuals who suffer from learning difficulties which I'm really enjoying. Part of this involves watching game shows on tv and I'm horrified at the ignorance displayed on these programmes by members of the 'general public' when classical music questions come up.

No, Bach and Schumann were NOT born in the same century, Beethoven didn't know Shostakovich and Mozart didn't write 9 symphonies! And it's not just classical music. Jazz doesn't fare much better. Benny Goodman didn't play the piano and Stephan Grappeli wasn't known for his singing!

However, ask who scored a goal in some football match from 19oatcake and the knowledge on display is scary.

Rant over!

[Bryn]

I took early retirement as a staff nurse in the NHS back in March after 22 years gruelling service. I now support individuals who suffer from learning difficulties which I'm really enjoying. Part of this involves watching game shows on tv and I'm horrified at the ignorance displayed on these programmes by members of the 'general public' when classical music questions come up.

No, Bach and Schumann were NOT born in the same century, Beethoven didn't know Shostakovich and Mozart didn't write 9 symphonies! And it's not just classical music. Jazz doesn't fare much better. Benny Goodman didn't play the piano and Stephan Grappeli wasn't known for his singing!

However, ask who scored a goal in some football match from 19oatcake and the knowledge on display is scary.

Rant over!

I share your shame at knowing little of kickball.

[Beef Oven!]

I took early retirement as a staff nurse in the NHS back in March after 22 years gruelling service. I now support individuals who suffer from learning difficulties which I'm really enjoying. Part of this involves watching game shows on tv and I'm horrified at the ignorance displayed on these programmes by members of the 'general public' when classical music questions come up.

No, Bach and Schumann were NOT born in the same century, Beethoven didn't know Shostakovich and Mozart didn't write 9 symphonies! And it's not just classical music. Jazz doesn't fare much better. Benny Goodman didn't play the piano and Stephan Grappeli wasn't known for his singing!

However, ask who scored a goal in some football match from 19oatcake and the knowledge on display is scary.

Rant over!

Mozart definitely wrote 9 symphonies.

[DracoM]

The interview is being repeated NOW on R3

[DracoM]

NOW!

[ardcarp]

I don’t exactly understand how policy comes to be made,or government spending decisions are made, but it does occur to me that the success of private schools in colonising the music industry, across all genres, may be a behind-the - scenes driver in reducing funding into music in state schools.

Added to which, many middle class parents spend small fortunes on their own childrens musical education, and may not be too unhappy that other peoples children aren’t getting subsidised or free opportunities to “ compete” with their own.

I don't share your cynicism about musical excellence in [many] independent schools. I believe that they have good and well-resourced music departments because, as with their art, drama and sport, they actually believe music to be part of a full and rounded education.

In spite of countless pieces of research that conclusively show that pursuit of music enhances performance in all areas of learning, the target-driven league-table obsessed state system has reduced 'music' to a box to be ticked which as Tom Service tried to point out can in reality be met by a couple of terms of almost nothing costing almost nothing.

I'm sure this doesn't apply to all state-schools, and I'm not putting myself forward as a passionate advocate for independent education. So pax, Gongers. I'd love to see in the UK a Scandinavian-style school system which [in Norway at least] works along the lines of keeping kids in the equivalent of kindergarten...big creative element.... up to the age of 7 and thereafter educating them all in the same neighbourhood schools regardless of so-called ability. Norway boasts two world-class symphony orchestras despite a population of only around 5 million.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

NOW!

Digging out some scrap of positivity, I thought TS (who has often been criticised on the Forum, not least by myself) was at his considerable best in his presentation of the issues and his handling of the interview with Gibb. For all the latter's evident belief that he'd presented a strong argument, the vacuity of his answers made the poverty of Education policy far more evident to everyone who heard him than any Paxo-style confrontationalism.

[teamsaint]

I don't share your cynicism about musical excellence in [many] independent schools. I believe that they have good and well-resourced music departments because, as with their art, drama and sport, they actually believe music to be part of a full and rounded education.

In spite of countless pieces of research that conclusively show that pursuit of music enhances performance in all areas of learning, the target-driven league-table obsessed state system has reduced 'music' to a box to be ticked which as Tom Service tried to point out can in reality be met by a couple of terms of almost nothing costing almost nothing.

I'm sure this doesn't apply to all state-schools, and I'm not putting myself forward as a passionate advocate for independent education. So pax, Gongers. I'd love to see in the UK a Scandinavian-style school system which [in Norway at least] works along the lines of keeping kids in the equivalent of kindergarten...big creative element.... up to the age of 7 and thereafter educating them all in the same neighbourhood schools regardless of so-called ability. Norway boasts two world-class symphony orchestras despite a population of only around 5 million.

I wasn't suggesting that independent schools only do things to protect their interests. Just that they will tend to protect them as well as providing the best education they can.

Independent schools believe in giving their kids the best possible opportunities.

[Dave2002]

I wasn't suggesting that independent schools only do things to protect their interests. Just that they will tend to protect them as well as providing the best education they can.

Independent schools believe in giving their kids the best possible opportunities.

They may also effectively be better funded on a per pupil basis than state schools. It’s not just about ethos and awareness. I know that sometimes state schools deliberately “lose” qualified music teachers to save money, even though those teachers may be generally appreciated. I don’t think it’s just about the EBacc, but it may be a consequence. If funds are limited, and music and arts are not part of the required syllabus as decided by a narrow minded top down approach, then school heads and governors may feel (in some cases very reluctantly) that they have no other choice to make.

Loss of music and arts teachers can have a much greater impact than “merely” denying a few talented children opportunities to to achieve Grade 8 (or even Grade 3), because those teachers often run events which bring more people together in participative activities.

[DracoM]

I don't share your cynicism about musical excellence in [many] independent schools. I believe that they have good and well-resourced music departments because, as with their art, drama and sport, they actually believe music to be part of a full and rounded education.

In spite of countless pieces of research that conclusively show that pursuit of music enhances performance in all areas of learning, the target-driven league-table obsessed state system has reduced 'music' to a box to be ticked which as Tom Service tried to point out can in reality be met by a couple of terms of almost nothing costing almost nothing.

I'm sure this doesn't apply to all state-schools, and I'm not putting myself forward as a passionate advocate for independent education. So pax, Gongers. I'd love to see in the UK a Scandinavian-style school system which [in Norway at least] works along the lines of keeping kids in the equivalent of kindergarten...big creative element.... up to the age of 7 and thereafter educating them all in the same neighbourhood schools regardless of so-called ability. Norway boasts two world-class symphony orchestras despite a population of only around 5 million.

Thx for that wisdom.

[Dave2002]

So pax, Gongers. I'd love to see in the UK a Scandinavian-style school system which [in Norway at least] works along the lines of keeping kids in the equivalent of kindergarten...big creative element.... up to the age of 7 and thereafter educating them all in the same neighbourhood schools regardless of so-called ability. Norway boasts two world-class symphony orchestras despite a population of only around 5 million.

I think you might be making the same kind of mistake here as Mr Gove in thinking that there is one solution which works for all children. Mr Gove was probably not wrong in thinking that some children would benefit from a more rigorous education, but he didn’t seem to appreciate that people are different, have different desires and abilities, and trying to fit everyone into a single rigid model does not work.

It may be that the Norway models do work well, but it doesn’t follow that all schools in the UK should follow that model. Scandinavian models do have problems, and the cultural differences in some countries (such as Sweden) are significant, so it would be wrong to suggest that they get everything “right” and better than the UK or that such models would work in a UK context.

[ardcarp]

.... people are different, have different desires and abilities, and trying to fit everyone into a single rigid model does not work.

I couldn't agree more, but do you have to send kids to different schools to have their varying 'needs' met? A good, well resourced school should be able to cater for all sorts and conditions. I gather there are a couple of Maths Schools in the UK [maybe others will know about these] to which only boffins go, and where the curriculum is pretty much maths and science. Is this a good idea? I think not.

[MrGongGong]

Independent schools believe in giving their kids the best possible opportunities.

I think (and i'm just back from one in a very neglected and "deprived" part of West Yorkshire) you will find that ALL schools do this
it's just that some have to have classes of over 30 and not enough resources.