Religions, Science, and Society

[Joseph K]

But like S_A, I'm struggling with an example of a positive contemporary societal impact of Islam.

Of course, it doesn't help that various National Liberation movements in Islamic countries have been toppled by the West. Islamism has been actively fostered by the West.

[richardfinegold]

My objection to Islam as outlined is limited to that - if people want to observe and believe in it that's up to them if it lends "meaning" to their lives, as long as they don't impose their views on the rest of society.

Do you downplay the role religions have played in what inventions were invented and what uses they were put to?

I've been reading up on the Ancient World lately. It's astounding how much intellectual development there was in Roman and other civilizations.
All of that pretty much squashed by the Church that felt it had to maintain a monopoly of knowledge and deliberately thought the Masses were best of being ignorant. A millennium of stifling ignorance. That to me is the legacy of Religions in the advancement of the mind.

[Beef Oven!]

Of course, it doesn't help that various National Liberation movements in Islamic countries have been toppled by the West. Islamism has been actively fostered by the West.

I think that true or not, your point is not relevant to what I'm saying. But separately, I'm no fan of US/western foreign policy on the Middle East.

[Bryn]

In modern times, I think Abdus Salam stood out as a particularly fine Islamic scientist. He was not exactly associated with mainstream Islam, following the Ahmadiyya tradition, but certainly associated his work closely with is Islamic faith. He bemoaned the relative lack of scientific endeavour witin modern Islam. Oh, and I can't disprove the existence of fairies at the bottom of my garden, but that does not make me agnostic regarding their unreality. Faith is a different issue, I certainly have faith in the Second Law of THermodynamics and its role in self-organisation in far from equilibrium thermodynamic conditions.

[Beef Oven!]

In modern times, I think Abdus Salam stood out as a particularly fine Islamic scientist. He was not exactly associated with mainstream Islam, following the Ahmadiyya tradition, but certainly associated his work closely with is Islamic faith. He bemoaned the relative lack of scientific endeavour witin modern Islam.

One gets the feeling that modern Islam has lost its dynamism in relation to pushing the boundaries of science and knowledge .....


I think that's a broken link, Bryn.

(I'm always deeply suspicious of anyone who has been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize!)

[teamsaint]

One gets the feeling that modern Islam has lost its dynamism in relation to pushing the boundaries of science and knowledge .....

And if it hasn’t, where would one hear a more accurate narrative?

[Richard Barrett]

I don't think any religion is exactly characterised by "dynamism in relation to pushing the boundaries of science and knowledge". Certainly not any of the fundamentalist varieties.

[Beef Oven!]

I don't think any religion is exactly characterised by "dynamism in relation to pushing the boundaries of science and knowledge". Certainly not any of the fundamentalist varieties.

No, you're quite right - I got caught up in the muddled thinking that I was originally posting against! I'll have a think about what I meant

[Bryn]

. . . (I'm always deeply suspicious of anyone who has been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize!)

Fair enough, but what has that to do with Abdus Salam. He shared the Nobel Prize for Physics, not Peace, and I am not about to dis Sheldon Lee Glashow or Stephen Weinberg with whom he shared it.

[teamsaint]

I don't think any religion is exactly characterised by "dynamism in relation to pushing the boundaries of science and knowledge". Certainly not any of the fundamentalist varieties.

Governernments, the military, religions ( etc) all use science and technology to further their own interests, don’t they ?
i was just looking again at Gillespie Kidd and Coia churches , commissioned by the RC church in Scotland.These commissions produced some exceptional buidlings, but when the function became redundant, the church pretty much abandoned them to their fate.

[Beef Oven!]

Fair enough, but what has that to do with Abdus Salam, he shared the Nobel Prize for Physics, not Peace, and I am not about to dis Sheldon Lee Glashow or Stephen Weinberg with whom he shared it.

I wasn't being entirely serious, Bryn!

[Richard Barrett]

Governernments, the military, religions ( etc) all use science and technology to further their own interests, don’t they ?
i was just looking again at Gillespie Kidd and Coia churches , commissioned by the RC church in Scotland.These commissions produced some exceptional buidlings, but when the function became redundant, the church pretty much abandoned them to their fate.

Religions are generally founded on a concept of some kind of revealed truth, so that for example the idea that developed after the middle ages that reality was something to be investigated by observation and experiment, instead of interpreted from a holy book, was highly threatening to the church, which forced Galileo to disown his results, among many other denials of scientific findings which, in the case of Catholicism, continued almost to the present day, and, in the case of evangelicals in the USA, continue to deny pretty much all science that doesn't suit their agenda. I supposed the latter might say they support something they call "creation science" but that is clearly not science in the aforementioned sense.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

... the idea that developed after the middle ages that reality was something to be investigated by observation and experiment, instead of interpreted from a holy book, was highly threatening to the church,

... and yet the Mediaeval Church sponsored much "investigation by observation and experiment" - not least the work of Bede; not just the historical and hagiographical writing by which he is most remembered today, but the mathematical and astronomical research that (AFAIK) isn't available in a modern English translation. Copernicus was a devout servant of the Roman Catholic Church, which sponsored his theories during his lifetime (IIRC, the mathematical principles on which his heliocentric model of the universe were founded were regarded as a useful tool for further research) and it was only after his death (when others took the idea of a sun-centred universe seriously) that he and his work were condemned. This is key, I think - when a politically powerful religion is secure, it can be confident in promoting research that pushes the boundaries of science and knowledge; but when the privilege and prestige of the political elite of that religion comes under threat, then ideas resulting from such research - and the people who communicate such ideas - are repressed.

[Serial_Apologist]

... and yet the Mediaeval Church sponsored much "investigation by observation and experiment" - not least the work of Bede; not just the historical and hagiographical writing by which he is most remembered today, but the mathematical and astronomical research that (AFAIK) isn't available in a modern English translation. Copernicus was a devout servant of the Roman Catholic Church, which sponsored his theories during his lifetime (IIRC, the mathematical principles on which his heliocentric model of the universe were founded were regarded as a useful tool for further research) and it was only after his death (when others took the idea of a sun-centred universe seriously) that he and his work were condemned. This is key, I think - when a politically powerful religion is secure, it can be confident in promoting research that pushes the boundaries of science and knowledge; but when the privilege and prestige of the political elite of that religion comes under threat, then ideas resulting from such research - and the people who communicate such ideas - are repressed.

Which chimes in with ruling orders' manifest attitudes to ceding political and social reforms, of course.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Which chimes in with ruling orders' manifest attitudes to ceding political and social reforms, of course.

Absolutely. When we talk about Religions (capital "R" as distinct from individual beliefs), we're talking about people and how they have traditionally created power structures to preserve and promote vested interests and personal prestige.