Religions, Science, and Society

[Serial_Apologist]

Having had a look on his profile, PGTipps was posting in every month in 2017, right up to mid-November. Nothing since. I do hope he's ok.

Notwithstanding strong disagreements on religion and associated topics he had with many on here, myself included, I have nevertheless to compliment him on persuading me that I must be an agnostic, as opposed to the atheist I'd always thought myself to be, on account of my not being able to disprove the existence of Him Up There.

[vinteuil]

I have nevertheless to compliment him on persuading me that I must be an agnostic, as opposed to the atheist I'd always thought myself to be, on account of my not being able to disprove the existence of Him Up There.

... o serial - courage mon brave! You can still be the atheist you always have been. You can't disprove a non-existent thing -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_Pink_Unicorn

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

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[Serial_Apologist]

... o serial - courage mon brave! You can still be the atheist you always have been. You can't disprove a non-existent thing -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell%27s_teapot

.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invisible_Pink_Unicorn

.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

.

It's very difficult if you're arguing with someone who absolutely insists that it exists because its non-existence cannot be proved either!

[Beef Oven!]

Notwithstanding strong disagreements on religion and associated topics he had with many on here, myself included, I have nevertheless to compliment him on persuading me that I must be an agnostic, as opposed to the atheist I'd always thought myself to be, on account of my not being able to disprove the existence of Him Up There.

As an atheist, I'm not terribly interested in Catholicism. I would have been during the epoch of the Third Reich because, as Hitchens has said, it was the most dangerous religion on the planet, with its open alliance with Hitler and its tacit consent of The Holocaust. That baton (most dangerous religion on the planet) has now been passed to Islam (not Muslims, btw), but we don't have any proponents of Islam on here, just some misguided apologists.

[Richard Tarleton]

the existence of Him Up There.

According to the last Horizon programme I managed to stay awake throughout for, there were at the last count around 170 billion galaxies and 100 million trillion planets in the universe. It is around 46 billion light years to the edge (which isn't actually the edge). All I can say is, He must have His hands full. And the concept of "Up There" is a tricky one, given the way we're spinning around our galaxy. I think you're on safe ground, S_A, as am I

Pabmusic normally has something helpful to say at this stage of the discussion......

[Serial_Apologist]

As an atheist, I'm not terribly interested in Catholicism. I would have been during the epoch of the Third Reich because, as Hitchens has said, it was the most dangerous religion on the planet, with its open alliance with Hitler and its tacit consent of The Holocaust. That baton (most dangerous religion on the planet) has now been passed to Islam (not Muslims, btw), but we don't have any proponents of Islam on here, just some misguided apologists.

I really miss his wonderful commentary on all things Bruckner. As I said, I hope he's ok.

Have a look in Scotty, and let us know you're alright!!

Without being an apologist for Islam the main problem as I see it lies in there being no accountable centre for deciding on principles, such as Christianity has via such bodies as the Vatican and the Synod, and that any protagonist (as I understand it) is free to declare a fatwa based on their own interpretation of scripture, which they are free to make at any time over any issue and have implemented without recourse to, or sanction by, higher (human) authority. This (if correct) would appear to be a major consititutional flaw standing in the way of possible Islamic Reformation. Many amazing discoveries and inventions were made under relatively enlightened Islam before the Crusades which influenced Greek thinking, and the latter on the Enlightenment. That said, based on certain unsubstantiable premises without which the religions concerned would have no reason to exist, reformations elsewhere have not managed to prevent emergence of absolutist fanaticisms in new guises as we see over the issues of homosexuality and women's rights.

[Beef Oven!]

Without being an apologist for Islam the main problem as I see it lies in there being no accountable centre for deciding on principles, such as Christianity has via such bodies as the Vatican and the Synod, and that any protagonist (as I understand it) is free to declare a fatwa based on their own interpretation of scripture, which they are free to make at any time over any issue and have implemented without recourse to, or sanction by, higher (human) authority. This (if correct) would appear to be a major consititutional flaw standing in the way of possible Islamic Reformation. Many amazing discoveries and inventions were made under relatively enlightened Islam before the Crusades which influenced Greek thinking, and the latter on the Enlightenment. That said, based on certain unsubstantiable premises without which the religions concerned would have no reason to exist, reformations elsewhere have not managed to prevent emergence of absolutist fanaticisms in new guises as we see over the issues of homosexuality and women's rights.

I think you have swiftly failed your opening statement!

And, Islam didn't discover or invent anything - people did.

We're not really concerned with inventions and discoveries, are we? The Nazis were brilliant at ballistics and a whole heap of other inventions and discoveries, but that's neither here nor there.

The social impact is what's important. Hence the intense dislike on my part, of religion. As I said, it would have been Catholicism 90 years ago, it's Islam today.

[Serial_Apologist]

I think you have swiftly failed your opening statement!

And, Islam didn't discover or invent anything - people did.

We're not really concerned with inventions and discoveries, are we? The Nazis were brilliant at ballistics and a whole heap of other inventions and discoveries, but that's neither here nor there.

The social impact is what's important. Hence the intense dislike on my part, of religion. As I said, it would have been Catholicism 90 years ago, it's Islam today.

My objection to Islam as outlined is limited to that - if people want to observe and believe in it that's up to them if it lends "meaning" to their lives, as long as they don't impose their views on the rest of society.

Do you downplay the role religions have played in what inventions were invented and what uses they were put to?

[Beef Oven!]

My objection to Islam as outlined is limited to that - if people want to observe and believe in it that's up to them if it lends "meaning" to their lives, as long as they don't impose their views on the rest of society.

Do you downplay the role religions have played in what inventions were invented and what uses they were put to?

I would acknowledge Christianity's contribution to Human Rights - without Christian thinking we would not have Human Rights as we know it. I'm struggling to think of what similar mitigation for Islam you might be thinking of.

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Religions, Science, and Society

Temporary title until something better occurs to anyone.

[greenilex]

I have a feeling Socrates was typical of most real seekers after knowledge in his attitude to a state religion.

[Serial_Apologist]

Thanks for doing this, ferney. Just to put my opening post in context the one to whom my disagreements were referring was the much-missed P.G.Tipps of alleged Scottycelt fame. At the moment I am struggling to come up with an inadequate response to Beef Oven's #9! As far as to what followed what it seems I got things the wrong way around:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_contributions_to_Islamic_world

Perhaps there are others more knowledgeably equipped than me with regards to historic Islamic achievements in the sciences, mathematics, arts and design.

[Richard Barrett]

Perhaps there are others more knowledgeably equipped than me with regards to historic Islamic achievements in the sciences, mathematics, arts and design.

There's an interesting book by Jim al-Khalili on the subject, The House of Wisdom. Here's a review which chimes more or less with my impressions of it: https://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/22/b...l-khalili.html

[Serial_Apologist]

There's an interesting book by Jim al-Khalili on the subject, The House of Wisdom. Here's a review which chimes more or less with my impressions of it: https://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/22/b...l-khalili.html

Thank you very much, Richard.

[Beef Oven!]

There's an interesting book by Jim al-Khalili on the subject, The House of Wisdom. Here's a review which chimes more or less with my impressions of it: https://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/22/b...l-khalili.html

Many years ago I was fascinated and enlightened by a story that traced the discovery of penicillin to a Turkish female doctor. I can't remember the detail, nor whether it was true, but it opened my eyes to the possibility of western-centric historical narrative!

Similarly, I always wondered why the Ottoman Empire was eruditely eschewed in pre-O'Level, O'Level and A-Level syllabuses when I was at school in the 60s & 70s.

But like S_A, I'm struggling with an example of a positive contemporary societal impact of Islam.