Syria

[Mario]

Is there a reason, which I’m not aware of, why Syria has not been mentioned here?

[vinteuil]

a) it's very early
b) it is and it is going to be immensely complex
c) does anyone here have any specialist knowledge
d) yes we have Ukraine, but that does have links to Lawrence Freedman's pages wch carry some weight
e) if Syria, why not all the other places that need pondering? South Sudan, Ethiopia, the Congo, Venezuela, Kosovo, the Chagos Islands - what about the Rohingyas?

[richardfinegold]

Well Politics are still discussed here but in general I come here as an escape from them. I discuss politics in other places

[vinteuil]

I come here as an escape from them. I discuss politics in other places

... wise words.

I don't discuss politics anywhere. Except with my partner.

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[french frank]

Is there a reason, which I’m not aware of, why Syria has not been mentioned here?

I don't know the answer to that, but vinteuil's 'c) does anyone here have any specialist knowledge' seems relevant. If not, it merely becomes another "What I reckon is ...".

Some people feel they must have a right to discuss politics here, others want to come here to escape politics. I support neither point of view.

[Mario]

Done it again, haven’t I?

Really didn’t mean to stir up a hornet’s nest!

Just felt good that justice was served (if so it is). And I recoil in horror as I read the news daily regarding the terrors that went on inside Sednaya.

FF, if you wish to close this thread, please do so with my blessing. If I upset anyone, I apologise.

That’s enough from me.

(Ed. Good, now get back to your studies, you ‘orrible little man!)

[french frank]

(Ed. Good, now get back to your studies, you ‘orrible little man!)

... unless anyone can offer specialist insight: the situation is fascinating in its complexity. But unless there are objections, I'll close the thread so that Mario can get back to his studies!

[smittims]

Surely there's no harm in having a thread to express our concerns, etc. as with Ukraine?


I fear the euphoria is premature. Apparently fighting is still going on in parts of the country . I can understand the eagerness of exiles to return but they may be terribly disappointed.

[vinteuil]

Surely there's no harm in having a thread to express our concerns

... I say again, "what about the Rohingyas?"

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[LMcD]

Surely there's no harm in having a thread to express our concerns, etc. as with Ukraine?


I fear the euphoria is premature. Apparently fighting is still going on in parts of the country . I can understand the eagerness of exiles to return but they may be terribly disappointed.

'Foreign adventures' rarely end well.
There can be few people in the world less qualified than I am to even attempt to address this problem, let alone offer a solution or any kind of useful or constructive input.

[Serial_Apologist]

... I say again, "what about the Rohingyas?"

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Too many whatabouteries there, vints.

I'm glad someone (Mario) has had the nerve to start a thread on Syria - I had given thought to one myself, and am glad for a chance to say something before the iron curtain comes down. We all need something that is at least provisionally cheering to think and talk about in these otherwise dreary times .

From the various "Islamic" régimes that have emerged over the past 25 years one does not get a clear picture from which to detect the hidden gaps in Islam that allow for progressive thinking on its terms. I say this leaving aside the theological dimension, which is of no interest to a non-believer in any case. What has been cited have been Islam's historical contributions to philosophy, mathematics, science and the arts - some of which, it is said, predating Western thought advancements by the time of the Crusades. Islam was then inclusive, one learns. Should we not regard the role of lender in Islamic society as progressive in comparison with our own? All religions contain progressive and reactionary aspects - their origination from sects was destined to be shaped by the dominant economic requirements of successive ages, replicating the top-down command structure characteristics of societies dominated by privileged elites or figureheads, whether they be tribal chieftains, royalties, military commanders, heads of dominating businesses or bureaucrats - all people who dole out sweeteners to those in the higher social ranks beneath them to maintain order in the end, whether by coercion or persuasion. Islam is no different from Christianity in these respects. Islam's apparent delay in "catching up" with the historic liberalisations manifest in mainstream Christianity is as much a reflection of its hegemony over large parts of the under-developed world for which one should blame capitalism, rather than those peoples seeking certainties of any kind when historically the west has long gone out of its way to prevent alternative secularist pathways which would inevitably question and challenge capitalism's monopoly of power.

That said, Afghanistan at the end of the 1980s provides something of a watershed in respect of outcomes for Islamic transmogrification. It was there that America with support (tacit and direct) of its western allies, armed what turned out to be the right wing of that country's war against its Russian occupiers, the Mojahedin, who then turned their weapons on the Fedayeen, who might be considered in relative terms as the left wing of the resistance, before itself transforming into the various extreme right factions destined to become Al Qaeda and Islamic State. Against inordinate odds progressive elements within Islam have bravely battled on for progressive reform in seats of government, mosques, social services and academia. This division between left and right (if you will), post 9/11, was well explained in a two-part edition of a Panorama-type programme on BBC1 from 2002 titled Culture Clash - the first part of which subtitled The Hidden Jihad from 2002 interviewed young men who had forsaken Western values for Jihad, and the second subtitled Mum, I'm a Muslim, looked at the culture change from the woman's point of view. While the first programme was both dispiriting and disturbing - we saw university-trained young middle class British-born Asian men preparing to go to Iraq to fight "the evil West" invasion - the second was illuminating from a feminist perspective that has largely been ignored by western media in the interim.

We may feel sceptical about grass roots movements which go back for founding principles to Feudal times, failing to acknowledge this has long been a part of Western radical traditions. At various junctures civilisations faced crossroads concerning future directions, even survival. At the moment the alt-right is in ascendancy in the West - perhaps we should give the new movement in Syria a chance: in presenting themselves as moderates they are uncorking empowering possibilities they will find difficult to stuff back into the bottle. As to the question why the scepticism or suspicion, anything, any movement that risks political independence and does not bow down to western governments demanding proscribed pathways, is not to be trusted to uphold the economic status quo. For humankind as a whole's future this is a terrible mistake, because it will help re-cement the two main institutional sources of Islamic fundamentalism into one.

[vinteuil]

Too many whatabouteries there, vints.

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... with respect to your text, serial - "I think you'll find it's a bit more complicated than that."

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[teamsaint]

I’m working on a lazy assumption basis that my enemy’s enemy is still my friend. Although it depends on who the current enemy is deemed to be by the current deemers.

[french frank]

I’m working on a lazy assumption basis that my enemy’s enemy is still my friend. Although it depends on who the current enemy is deemed to be by the current deemers.

I've no objection to the discussion continuing, though I doubt there's much we can usefully say.

I thought the BBC story about life in Idlib under HTS was interesting because it suggested a more inclusive regime and, unusually, a concern that a community life (eg rubbish collections!) should continue, while a Catholic friar said there was now more freedom than under Assad. But, indeed, it's very early days...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8ew16391rdo

[Serial_Apologist]

I thought the BBC story about life in Idlib under HTS was interesting because it suggested a more inclusive regime and, unusually, a concern that a community life (eg rubbish collections!) should continue, while a Catholic friar said there was now more freedom than under Assad. But, indeed, it's very early days...
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c8ew16391rdo

It is, of course. Assuming the group's so-far liberal inclinations turn out to be as they intend to continue as evidenced by Idlib, they will not only have western shilly-shallying over recognition let alone assistance to deal with, but the desires of many who suffered unimaginably under Assad for vengeance against what if anything remains in situ of his regime, not to mention its collaborators; also factional opposition from armed fundamentalists opposed to what they see as betrayals. I may well be wrong but I don't think forgiveness figures as high in Islam as in Christianity. The aid agencies who have been so magnificently brave in Gaza will at least be invited in and on current evidence willingly. These things have to be borne in mind when it comes to re-construction - the impression I gleaned from the very minimal BBC report also seen by french frank was of ad hoc solutions to the most immediate needs, such as getting production and distribution of basic necessities going and cleaning up. Long term, what happens to the endless broken concrete remains of shattered buildings piled up everywhere, (and of course not just in Syria)? Can it be salvaged in some way, the concrete separated from the steel reinforcements, and recycled for future building construction? and if not, what to do with all of it? Use it for creating artificial hills?