The essence of music

[smittims]

As I recall, though, having heard the first performance and the discussion around the work at the time, it was simply the device of having him walk around the orchestra, so unusual (and at that time pretty well unique) in an orchestral work which drew accusations of gimmickry. Horn players have a reputation of being traditionalists and might have felt that more than others.

Does anyone else recall the occasion? Unless I've confused it with another concert, the other works were Walton's Capriccio Burlesco (th British premiere, I think) and Elgar's second symphony , a particularly fine performance.

[french frank]

Horn players have a reputation of being traditionalists and might have felt that more than others.

I didn't know about the reputation of horn players, but I suppose traditionalists in general - almost by definition - find it difficult to adapt to innovation, new ideas and new ways of doing things.

[Ein Heldenleben]

As I recall, though, having heard the first performance and the discussion around the work at the time, it was simply the device of having him walk around the orchestra, so unusual (and at that time pretty well unique) in an orchestral work which drew accusations of gimmickry. Horn players have a reputation of being traditionalists and might have felt that more than others.

Does anyone else recall the occasion? Unless I've confused it with another concert, the other works were Walton's Capriccio Burlesco (th British premiere, I think) and Elgar's second symphony , a particularly fine performance.

People might be surprised by how much some orchestral musicians don’t like gimmickry and indeed some modern music and in the Sixties there were many more that like that. Partly because it’s hard work - partly because they didn’t think some of it was up to much .The classical music world presented by the industry and media as one of serene virtuosi devoting their lives to the works of this noble art etc is not the total reality.

I always heard that it was the brass section not the horns. If we are dealing in cliches - don’t the horn section consider themselves the elite intellectuals of the brass section mastering a very difficult instrument which has to be periodically inverted and drained especially and pointedly after a split note? . They are kept separate from trumpets , trombones and perhaps less likely to indulge in that compulsory pre , inter and post “rehydration” that the latter favour. Maybe the “rehydration” was a factor that night.
As I say it’s all cliches partly based on nights spent at the LemonTree and Marquess of Anglesey ….

[french frank]

The classical music world presented by the industry and media as one of serene virtuosi devoting their lives to the works of this noble art etc is not the reality.

Nor though, in my view, should it be the reality. That idea twins with classical music itself being calming and 'destressing'.

[smittims]

There have been instances when conductors have asked 'the brass section' to play and the horns have remained silent.

Yes, being traditionalist does, by definition suggest resistance to new ideas and new ways of doing things, but then, new ideas are not always better than the old ones.

[french frank]

Yes, being traditionalist does, by definition suggest resistance to new ideas and new ways of doing things, but then, new ideas are not always better than the old ones.

In this case we're discussing music, but it would apply to any branch of the arts, wouldn't it? I'd say it wasn't a question of new ways/ideas being better or worse than old ones, but of younger composers, painters, sculptors, writers wanting to experiment with new ideas and produce innovative works which should be judged on their own terms not on how well they are in conformity with 'tradition'. The same applies if creative artists prefer to stick to established practice: they create and their creations should be judged for what they are rather than written off as 'old-fashioned' or 'not really music'. Posterity will make its judgements at various points in time.

[Ein Heldenleben]

In this case we're discussing music, but it would apply to any branch of the arts, wouldn't it? I'd say it wasn't a question of new ways/ideas being better or worse than old ones, but of younger composers, painters, sculptors, writers wanting to experiment with new ideas and produce innovative works which should be judged on their own terms not on how well they are in conformity with 'tradition'. The same applies if creative artists prefer to stick to established practice: they create and their creations should be judged for what they are rather than written off as 'old-fashioned' or 'not really music'. Posterity will make its judgements at various points in time.

T.S.Eliot wrote the classic essay in this in Tradition and The Individual Talent





(?)
“Yet if the only form of tradition, of handing down, consisted in following the ways of the immediate generation before us in a blind or timid adherence to its successes, “tradition” should positively be discouraged. We have seen many such simple currents soon lost in the sand; and novelty is better than repetition. Tradition is a matter of much wider significance. It cannot be inherited, and if you want it you must obtain it by great labour...the historical sense involves a perception, not only of the pastness of the past, but of its presence; the historical sense compels a man to write not merely with his own generation in his bones, but with a feeling that the whole of the literature of Europe from Homer and within it the whole of the literature of his own country has a simultaneous existence and composes a simultaneous order. This historical sense, which is a sense of the timeless as well as of the temporal and of the timeless and of the temporal together, is what makes a writer traditional. And it is at the same time what makes a writer most acutely conscious of his place in time, of his contemporaneity.

It’s noticeable how many of the greats spent hours studying past masters e.g, Beethoven late in life “Handel is the greatest of masters , from him I can still learn . “ Perhaps more than any other Art composers are supremely conscious of tradition writing counterpoint in the style of Palestrina etc. To be a real revolutionary you have to understand the old forms . Ooh I’m sounding like Hans Sachs…

[french frank]

T.S.Eliot wrote the classic essay in this in Tradition and The Individual Talent

I agree with TS Eliot . I like the phrase 'the pastness of the past'. I think that emphasises its pastness. Sometimes one moves on sadly, sometimes with hope.

[Serial_Apologist]

As I recall, though, having heard the first performance and the discussion around the work at the time, it was simply the device of having him walk around the orchestra, so unusual (and at that time pretty well unique) in an orchestral work which drew accusations of gimmickry. Horn players have a reputation of being traditionalists and might have felt that more than others.

Does anyone else recall the occasion? Unless I've confused it with another concert, the other works were Walton's Capriccio Burlesco (th British premiere, I think) and Elgar's second symphony , a particularly fine performance.

My father recorded it on reel-to-reel so I was able to hear it at a later date. From what I remember it was both good and musically coherent... and more interesting than her later return to more orthodox kinds of music.

[Ian Thumwood]

Just stumbled upon this thread.

It is a really interesting question and i think that revolves around the spark of creation. I have read interviews with rhe pianist Keith Jarrett who has spoken frequently about being in the zone when improvising . For me , the essence of music has to come from the impovisational process whether it is Bach , Beethiven , Chopin , Charlie Parker , John Coltrane , Jimi Hendrix or Derek Bailey.

The obvious example for me would be pianist Paul Bley who was , incidentally , Keith Jarrett's favourite piano. I have loads of his CDs and am a massive fan. The reason why i feel he represented the essence of music was because his improvisation was never abstract enough to lack melodic beauty but also had the ability to be 'in the zone ' from the first instance. On top.of that , his improvisations have a shape that is almost architectural and there is nothing extraneous about the music produced.


I think Paul Bley probably represents the essence of music more than anyone else. His music was often improvised in the spot, startinf from a hypothetical blank piece of paper. The spontaneous nature of the music strips his work.of unnecessary fluff and filling. It is music making in it's purest and most honest form. A virtuoso musician , Bley was capable to taking the music in any way he wished. I just feel that Paul Bley's solo piano work is rhe apogee of music making... put on the spot and contunually producing great art.

i think there are plenty of symphonic composers who could conjure up music that speaka of the human condition but to find true essence i think it much cime about through improvisation. In my mind Paul Bley represents the very DNA if what creativity is about

[Ian Thumwood]

I thought this was a good thread but no one seems to be contributing anymore.

[french frank]

I thought this was a good thread but no one seems to be contributing anymore.

The only other thought I'd had was about the Jools Holland interview with Michael 'Bami' Rose and my complaint that with two jazzmen talking together they didn't discuss jazz. For R3 to explain why they discussed classical music but even then they didn't discuss the music. If they had 'discussed jazz', they would probably have discussed my all-time favourite jazz works, the musicians who have influenced me, my life in jazz. That might have been described as 'talking about jazz', or 'talking about music'; but it wouldn't be about the music itself, music as an art.

[Ian Thumwood]

I agree.

The very essence of music for me is the creative process. I think music at it's core needs to be stripped of anything superfluous and this would mean excluding anything that is descriptive or takes its cues from books or paintings. I suppose JS Bach's keyboaed music or cello suites would be a prine example. You could also cite the Chopin Preludes and i reallly like the idea of something that ia supposed to capturethe essence exploring all 24 keys. Both the Bach and Shostokovich P & Fs would also be excellent candidates

In jazz i suppose you would have to choose a Chsrlie Parker solo or something by Bud Powell.

Beacause improvisation or spontaniety is the kernal of what makes up alot of the greatest achievements in music, i am wondering if this woukd exclude Serialism or any other music created by a system ?

[french frank]

Beacause improvisation or spontaniety is the kernal of what makes up alot of the greatest achievements in music, i am wondering if this woukd exclude Serialism or any other music created by a system ?

I would say it only excludes them because you have chosen to take improvisation and spontaneity as part of the essence of music. I wouldn't do that. I think of music as primarily cerebral, others (not me) might think of emotion as being a key to creation.

[Serial_Apologist]

I agree.

The very essence of music for me is the creative process. I think music at it's core needs to be stripped of anything superfluous and this would mean excluding anything that is descriptive or takes its cues from books or paintings. I suppose JS Bach's keyboaed music or cello suites would be a prine example. You could also cite the Chopin Preludes and i reallly like the idea of something that ia supposed to capturethe essence exploring all 24 keys. Both the Bach and Shostokovich P & Fs would also be excellent candidates

In jazz i suppose you would have to choose a Chsrlie Parker solo or something by Bud Powell.

Beacause improvisation or spontaniety is the kernal of what makes up alot of the greatest achievements in music, i am wondering if this woukd exclude Serialism or any other music created by a system ?

According to Schoenberg he found that he had arrived at the serial, or at least 12-tone method spontaneously by a route of melodic compression from his early Wagnerian Unendlisches Melodie approach, and avoiding repeated notes in melodies and chords; ironically, subsequent composers attracted to the 12-tone method used it as a deliberate quest to avoid the habits and cliches that they felt had held their music back and prevented fresh ideas emerging. Bartok only ever consciously used a tone row (in his second violin concerto) but he was nevertheless strongly influenced by Schoenberg's free way of, in Bartok's case, spinning out Eastern European and Near-Eastern chromatic-modal melodies into counterpoints with juxtapositions jarring to many newcomers to his music which had a tense kind of authentic beauty proper to his responses to his fortunes in tense times nevertheless, and an energetic vitality. I imagine him pouring ideas onto the paper almost faster than his conscious discernment permitted in an almost equivalence of a jazz person such as Coltrane pouring out complex chromatic lines and superpositions on the spot without pre-thought. This is the nearest expression of authentic spontaneity I can think of that measures up by reflecting the complexity of the modern age in the way a folk singer of plainchant composer would have reflected the comparative practical living simplicities and verities of his or her age. Like yourself I have always preferred the flowing outpourings approach in music to the carefully lego-like constructed one favoured by many Neo Classical modernists such as Stravinsky in the 1920s and 30s. Music one feels just had to come out. The tweaking and correcting can come later. The first classical work I truly loved at the age of 7 was Schumann's Piano Concerto - a work that has that feeling of inner necessity about it.