The essence of music

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  • french frank
    Administrator/Moderator
    • Feb 2007
    • 30448

    #46
    Quite germane to this subject is a newsletter article from Prospect's culture critic Philip Clark. He ponders why the British general public, specifically those who enjoy 'classical music', have never taken to 'Germany's greatest living composer' [sic], Helmut Lachenmann. The LSO with Ilan Volkov performed his 40-minute My Melodies​ (a "labyrinth of rude noises and hardly-there orchestral whispers"​) at the Barbican​ last week To quote a short excerpt from Clark's essay:

    "In truth, his music has never been an easy sell in this Britain—Tanzsuite mit Deutschlandlied, for string quartet and orchestra, performed by the Arditti Quartet and Bamberg Symphony Orchestra under Jonathan Nott at the 2013 Proms, provoked a mass mutiny and walkout among the audience, most of whom had no doubt come to hear Mahler’s Fifth in the second half. At the Barbican, a near capacity house listened attentively, with only a few people dashing for the exit—but there’s still a long way to go, I think, until classical audiences in the UK learn to truly love Lachenmann’s music.

    "Why exactly does Lachenmann present British audiences with so many problems? When the Belgian composer Maya Verlaak called a 2014 piece All English Music is Greensleeves, her tongue was in her cheek, but her analysis did contain a kernel of truth. From Vaughan Williams’s The Lark Ascending to Harrison Birtwistle’s Earth Dances, English composers have excelled at evocations of landscape, but music like Lachenmann’s, which is essentially about music and how it sounds, has never been part of our national musical lexicon.​"

    Or again:

    "
    The problem, as Lachenmann hears it, is that as soon as a sound considered “beautiful” establishes itself as part of the compositional lingua franca, that’s the very moment its effectiveness fades; it becomes an effect, a too-easily-achieved emotional hook, rather than something genuinely beautiful rooted in sound. Lachenmann’s response is to shred accepted ideals of instrumental technique. A soaring melody on a violin communicates as being “beautiful” because listeners have been conditioned by the expectations of “good technique”. But what, Lachenmann asks, could happen if fingers trained to touch a string at a particular angle moved even a couple of millimetres to the left or right? What sounds lie secreted in the cracks?" The essence of music? Or non-music?
    It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

    Comment

    • smittims
      Full Member
      • Aug 2022
      • 4322

      #47
      I for one like Lachenmann's music. I enjoyed Tanzsuite at the Proms , and Tableau broadcast on Radio 3 from a Berlin/Rattle concert . I think he's one of the most inventive composers alive, and puts the Radio 3 darlings to shame.

      A propos theological dicsussions ,another classic , from the Third in the 1950s, was between Betrand Russall and a Christian philosopher, wheretheyy wrangle over 'the non-existent square circle '. I love it at one point when Russell , asked a question,says 'I should have to reply to that at some length ' . And he would , too, without once saying 'yunnow, kine-of like, yunnow'.

      Comment

      • french frank
        Administrator/Moderator
        • Feb 2007
        • 30448

        #48
        So what about 'music like Lachenmann’s, which is essentially about music and how it sounds'? Can that be commented on further?
        It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

        Comment

        • Mandryka
          Full Member
          • Feb 2021
          • 1560

          #49
          Originally posted by french frank View Post
          So what about 'music like Lachenmann’s, which is essentially about music and how it sounds'? Can that be commented on further?
          Try listening to just the sound of Pression, and then watch a video of a cellist playing it. The latter is IMO much more interesting because of the thrill of watching how the cellist produces the unexpected sounds. There's an element of circus to this type of work.

          Lachenmann's music matured to some extent, and the shock and circus aspect disappeared, what he does becomes much more conventional. Compare for example Gran Torso with Double (the string orchestra version of Grido)

          Comment

          • Mandryka
            Full Member
            • Feb 2021
            • 1560

            #50
            Originally posted by french frank View Post
            Quite germane to this subject is a newsletter article from Prospect's culture critic Philip Clark. He ponders why the British general public, specifically those who enjoy 'classical music', have never taken to 'Germany's greatest living composer' [sic], Helmut Lachenmann. The LSO with Ilan Volkov performed his 40-minute My Melodies (a "labyrinth of rude noises and hardly-there orchestral whispers") at the Barbican last week To quote a short excerpt from Clark's essay:

            "In truth, his music has never been an easy sell in this Britain—Tanzsuite mit Deutschlandlied, for string quartet and orchestra, performed by the Arditti Quartet and Bamberg Symphony Orchestra under Jonathan Nott at the 2013 Proms, provoked a mass mutiny and walkout among the audience, most of whom had no doubt come to hear Mahler’s Fifth in the second half. At the Barbican, a near capacity house listened attentively, with only a few people dashing for the exit—but there’s still a long way to go, I think, until classical audiences in the UK learn to truly love Lachenmann’s music.

            "Why exactly does Lachenmann present British audiences with so many problems? When the Belgian composer Maya Verlaak called a 2014 piece All English Music is Greensleeves, her tongue was in her cheek, but her analysis did contain a kernel of truth. From Vaughan Williams’s The Lark Ascending to Harrison Birtwistle’s Earth Dances, English composers have excelled at evocations of landscape, but music like Lachenmann’s, which is essentially about music and how it sounds, has never been part of our national musical lexicon."

            Or again:

            "
            The problem, as Lachenmann hears it, is that as soon as a sound considered “beautiful” establishes itself as part of the compositional lingua franca, that’s the very moment its effectiveness fades; it becomes an effect, a too-easily-achieved emotional hook, rather than something genuinely beautiful rooted in sound. Lachenmann’s response is to shred accepted ideals of instrumental technique. A soaring melody on a violin communicates as being “beautiful” because listeners have been conditioned by the expectations of “good technique”. But what, Lachenmann asks, could happen if fingers trained to touch a string at a particular angle moved even a couple of millimetres to the left or right? What sounds lie secreted in the cracks?" The essence of music? Or non-music?
            British audiences don't have a special relationship to British music IMO - there are more Mozart concerts here than Britten concerts. And Lachenmann doesn't present a special problem for Brits - I don't think his music is played less than Rihm's or Sciarrino's or Xenakis's or Carter's or Barrett's.

            Part of the problem I think is that Lachenmann's music is yesterday - it is dated. The contemporary music which excites today's concert audiences is by very different composers - Pärt and Glass for example. Nobody in Britain wants chrashbangplinkplong any more.

            Comment

            • Mandryka
              Full Member
              • Feb 2021
              • 1560

              #51
              Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post

              Thanks so much for that, Mandryka.
              I take back what I said about Anthony Kenny. I have no idea how he could think his sill comment about computers and thought, or his enigmatic comment about Wittgenstein's conception of a person, are valid contributions.

              Neither do I agree both got into a muddle about mixed categories, or that they talked across each other. Rowan Williams certainly did, but not Richard Dawkins as far as I can see. It would have been more interesting to see a debate between Dawkins and a real religious intellect like Peter Geach or Michael Dummett.

              This audience clip gave me a strong nostalgia hit.

              Last edited by Mandryka; 06-12-24, 12:31.

              Comment

              • french frank
                Administrator/Moderator
                • Feb 2007
                • 30448

                #52
                Originally posted by Mandryka View Post
                Try listening to just the sound of Pression, and then watch a video of a cellist playing it. The latter is IMO much more interesting because of the thrill of watching how the cellist produces the unexpected sounds. There's an element of circus to this type of work.
                That is interesting - visual music. I went to a concert in Switzerland where the members of the orchestra got up, sat down, turned their backs on the audience, and the flute soloist whirled around the stage and waved her flute in the air. I found it all a bit distracting...
                It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                Comment

                • smittims
                  Full Member
                  • Aug 2022
                  • 4322

                  #53
                  Thea Musgrave's clarinet concerto required the soloist (Gervase de Peyer at the premiere) to wander round the orchestra , playing from the parts of various players over their shoulders. She told an old friend of mine

                  '.. what do you think? When he got to the horn section,instead of the music, they'd put a paper saying 'GO AWAY' !.'

                  knowing who was principal horn at the time, I think that was a a sanitised version of the two words on the paper.

                  Comment

                  • french frank
                    Administrator/Moderator
                    • Feb 2007
                    • 30448

                    #54
                    Originally posted by smittims View Post
                    Thea Musgrave's clarinet concerto required the soloist (Gervase de Peyer at the premiere) to wander round the orchestra , playing from the parts of various players over their shoulders. She told an old friend of mine

                    '.. what do you think? When he got to the horn section,instead of the music, they'd put a paper saying 'GO AWAY' !.'

                    knowing who was principal horn at the time, I think that was a a sanitised version of the two words on the paper.
                    Her explanation of this** makes sense if one knows what to listen for. The gentleman who composed the Swiss piece perhaps had a simiar idea but it wasn't explained; nor why the orchestra suddenly all hissed for some reason.

                    ** "The solo clarinet, as well as having a virtuosic role, also here has another function in that it moves around the orchestra to play with various smaller ‘concertante’ groups. The groups in turn are set against the rest of the orchestra. At these moments the solo clarinet is usually independent of the conductor and leads the other members of the group." Did that come over to a knowledgeable audience?
                    It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                    Comment

                    • Ein Heldenleben
                      Full Member
                      • Apr 2014
                      • 6925

                      #55
                      Originally posted by smittims View Post
                      Thea Musgrave's clarinet concerto required the soloist (Gervase de Peyer at the premiere) to wander round the orchestra , playing from the parts of various players over their shoulders. She told an old friend of mine

                      '.. what do you think? When he got to the horn section,instead of the music, they'd put a paper saying 'GO AWAY' !.'

                      knowing who was principal horn at the time, I think that was a a sanitised version of the two words on the paper.
                      I heard it was “Why don’t you F… O.. back to the winds? .” They were trying to get him to crack …

                      Comment

                      • smittims
                        Full Member
                        • Aug 2022
                        • 4322

                        #56
                        Yes, I think Gervase was too much a gentleman to give Thea the actual wording.

                        The reason for the peripitations was clearly explained to the audience in a programme note. I don't think anyone was puzzled, bur some thought it a gimmick.

                        Comment

                        • Ein Heldenleben
                          Full Member
                          • Apr 2014
                          • 6925

                          #57
                          Originally posted by smittims View Post
                          Yes, I think Gervase was too much a gentleman to give Thea the actual wording.

                          The reason for the peripitations was clearly explained to the audience in a programme note. I don't think anyone was puzzled, bur some thought it a gimmick.
                          A gent and a Very good clarinet player G. De P.
                          On a related note the Royal Opera House Orchestra appear to have recruited a sensational principal clarinet .His solo in E Lucevan Le Stelle in the current Tosca is pretty much worth the price of admission on its own.

                          Comment

                          • french frank
                            Administrator/Moderator
                            • Feb 2007
                            • 30448

                            #58
                            Originally posted by smittims View Post
                            Thea Musgrave's clarinet concerto required the soloist (Gervase de Peyer at the premiere) to wander round the orchestra , playing from the parts of various players over their shoulders. She told an old friend of mine

                            '.. what do you think? When he got to the horn section,instead of the music, they'd put a paper saying 'GO AWAY' !.'

                            knowing who was principal horn at the time, I think that was a a sanitised version of the two words on the paper.
                            Assuming your friend's account is correct, it might also have been that TM was too 'ladylike' to repeat it. This was 1969, and Tynan's scandal-causing first public use of the f-word (as it's still commonly described) was 1963(?). I didn't hear it liberally scattered about, as it is now, until I saw the US film Serpico in c 1974. I presume this was a bit of banter from the brass players rather than a reflection on the work!

                            Interestingly, it was premiered on 5 February 1969 at the RFH, the BBCSO under Colin Davis, and subsequently analysed (rather than reviewed as a performance) by none other than Anthony Payne, his description of the soloist's 'wandering' round the orchestra rather more purposeful:

                            "Each of these sections features a different concertante group of wind and brass instruments, and is led by the clarinettist who takes up several different stations within the orchestra ..." Tempo 88, Spring 1969, pp 51-53
                            It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                            Comment

                            • smittims
                              Full Member
                              • Aug 2022
                              • 4322

                              #59
                              Well, my informant made it clear that he felt Thea had believed that wording .

                              On the historical use of the word, I was reminded of another 'watershed moment' . In, I think Anthony Powell's novel 'The Acceptance World' the narrator tells of a moment when his friend Charles Stringham has had a row with his upper-class girlfriend . 'When she realised Stringham had left , she expressed her feelings in one short word which at that time I had not heard on a lady's lips' (quoted from memory) .

                              I think that's so much more expressive than if Powell had actually quoted the word: and example of the novelist's craft.

                              Comment

                              • french frank
                                Administrator/Moderator
                                • Feb 2007
                                • 30448

                                #60
                                Whatever the linguistic significance, EH's post (yesterday 15:13) is clarified by Anthony Payne's article which explained the separate concertante groups, including one for the brass and another for the winds - the soloist in this work being a clarinettist. That seems to me to be the essence of the joke rather than the language in which it was expressed, and would constitute the humour of the remark.
                                It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

                                Comment

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