Broad/narrow-minded

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  • french frank
    Administrator/Moderator
    • Feb 2007
    • 30511

    #31
    Here I would like to tackle Beef Oven's Tenth :-):

    I'm unsure why a 'Radio 1 dance party' would be outside the remit of the Proms. Forgive me if the remit of the Proms has been authoritatively explicated elsewhere and I've not seen it, but I thought that it was a loose sort of Sir Henry Wood type thing about 'creating a public appetite for classical and modern music'. And what's Radio 3 got to do with any of this?
    It was actually the main founder of the Proms, Robert Newman, who said he wanted “to train the public in easy stages [...] Popular at first, gradually raising the standard until I have created a public for classical and modern music.”

    The first point is you only have to look at the early Proms to see that there were no concerts devoted to either 'popular' or 'modern' music. And until Roger Wright's regime a century later there were only occasional ones, years apart.

    Second point: Looking at early Prom concerts, it seems clear that by 'modern' Newman was thinking of living 'classical' composers like Cécile Chaminade or Saint-Saëns, or even recently dead like Auber, Benjamin Godard or Wienawski, and whose works might not yet have become firm concert-hall repertoire; not contemporary popular.

    Third point: It's not clear how a 'Radio 1 dance-party' at the Proms creates a public for classical or modern music, of any kind. There already is a public for dance-parties. Is it supposed that it will convert regular Proms-goers to dance-parties as well?

    It now has to do with Radio 3 because the Proms have been the BBC Proms, since 1927. And the justification for the BBC running the Proms is that the concerts are providing content for BBC broadcasts. Since there is now much less on television, Radio 3's live broadcasts are the principal outlet, the Proms forming an important part of Radio 3's schedule. It might make more sense if Radio 1 alone took the concert and enabled Radio 3 to give an evening outing for one of the lunchtime concerts instead. Otherwise it's not clear what the benefit is of broadcasting a Radio 1 dance-party to a Radio 3 audience. Clearly, there is a benefit to Radio 1's audience who have been unable to get tickets for the real Ibiza dance-party in a couple of weeks' time, having a Prom to go to. But all they're getting is a second-best to being at the real Radio 1 Weekend. I suppose it may become a Proms regular once the government questions why the BBC is promoting a dance-party over in Ibiza anyway. ["It's part of our education and learning remit," I hear them say.]
    It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

    Comment

    • Eine Alpensinfonie
      Host
      • Nov 2010
      • 20575

      #32
      The word "judgemental" is often used in the same context.

      "You are being judgemental" often means "I don't like what you're saying".

      People make judgements all the time; it's an essential part of life. When my daughter said I was judgemental, I replied that it was part of a parent's responsibility to be so.

      Comment

      • french frank
        Administrator/Moderator
        • Feb 2007
        • 30511

        #33
        But I don't think one can be judgemental about personal tastes in, for example, music. You can make factual comments (It's very narrow) or express an opinion (not very sophisticated, a bit dated) but you can't in my view (and Beefy's ) make a value judgement (it's good/bad).

        I shan't listen to the Asian Network Prom, not because I think it will be 'awful', but because I'm already putting off other things that I should be doing and an Asian Network Prom doesn't interest me any more than a Wagner Prom. The 'uninterest' is of the same kind.
        It isn't given us to know those rare moments when people are wide open and the lightest touch can wither or heal. A moment too late and we can never reach them any more in this world.

        Comment

        • Nick Armstrong
          Host
          • Nov 2010
          • 26575

          #34
          Originally posted by french frank View Post
          Here I would like to tackle Beef Oven's Tenth :-)
          You are Beefy's equivalent of Deryck Cooke, then? (Oh sorry - I get it - Ludwig van Beef oven - so you are his Barry Cooper...)

          Either way, I imagine there are a number of people who would like to do a reconstruction job on the Beefster!
          "...the isle is full of noises,
          Sounds and sweet airs, that give delight and hurt not.
          Sometimes a thousand twangling instruments
          Will hum about mine ears, and sometime voices..."

          Comment

          • MrGongGong
            Full Member
            • Nov 2010
            • 18357

            #35
            Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post
            People make judgements all the time; it's an essential part of life. When my daughter said I was judgemental, I replied that it was part of a parent's responsibility to be so.


            I used to be compared to

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            • Eine Alpensinfonie
              Host
              • Nov 2010
              • 20575

              #36
              Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post


              I used to be compared to




              Was "everyone else's" dad better?

              Comment

              • MrGongGong
                Full Member
                • Nov 2010
                • 18357

                #37
                Originally posted by Old Grumpy View Post
                Ah, but what is rubbish to you may not be rubbish to me (or anyone else).

                OG


                I love crap music (in some contexts)


                I've written acres of it

                Comment

                • teamsaint
                  Full Member
                  • Nov 2010
                  • 25231

                  #38
                  Originally posted by MrGongGong View Post


                  I love crap music (in some contexts)


                  I've written acres of it
                  I think you will find that it is Hectares these days, Gongers.

                  No doubt it is excellent stuff.
                  Except the deliberately crap stuff.
                  Which is presumably good in Context.
                  Last edited by teamsaint; 23-07-15, 18:09.
                  I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed, debriefed or numbered. My life is my own.

                  I am not a number, I am a free man.

                  Comment

                  • Serial_Apologist
                    Full Member
                    • Dec 2010
                    • 37857

                    #39
                    Originally posted by teamsaint View Post
                    I think you will find that it is Hectares these days, Gongers.

                    No doubt it is excellent stuff.
                    Except the deliberatley crap stuff.
                    Which is presumably good in Context.
                    Postmodern relativist rubbish, I'd imagine.

                    Now in MY day, you were expected to devise a tone row capable of running forwards, backwards, upside-down, and upside-down backwards, or being stacked up into chords unsupported by such outdated devices as key signatures, predictable resolutions and similar right-note cliches...

                    Comment

                    • burning dog
                      Full Member
                      • Dec 2010
                      • 1511

                      #40
                      Originally posted by teamsaint View Post
                      .

                      No doubt it is excellent stuff.
                      Except the deliberately crap stuff.
                      Which is presumably good in Context.

                      Comment

                      • Eine Alpensinfonie
                        Host
                        • Nov 2010
                        • 20575

                        #41
                        Originally posted by Serial_Apologist View Post
                        Postmodern relativist rubbish, I'd imagine.

                        Now in MY day, you were expected to devise a tone row capable of running forwards, backwards, upside-down, and upside-down backwards, or being stacked up into chords unsupported by such outdated devices as key signatures, predictable resolutions and similar right-note cliches...

                        I must put in a word for MrGG's music. It's nothing like I thought it would be, having made (er) judgements from some of his one-liners.

                        I only wish I had half his talent.

                        Comment

                        • Beef Oven!
                          Ex-member
                          • Sep 2013
                          • 18147

                          #42
                          Originally posted by Eine Alpensinfonie View Post
                          I must put in a word for MrGG's music. It's nothing like I thought it would be, having made (er) judgements from some of his one-liners.
                          None of that judgemental narrow-minded stuff going on here

                          I only wish I had half his talent.
                          2% would do you fine

                          Comment

                          • Beef Oven!
                            Ex-member
                            • Sep 2013
                            • 18147

                            #43
                            Originally posted by french frank View Post
                            I will reveal (but this may be rather long - I may give up the will … :-)

                            First point, the (new) OP piqued my interest for purely linguistic reasons - the way people introduce nuances with a subtext, intentional or conditioned. So it should not have been on that original thread: I didn't realise it would spark controversy!

                            For example (the perils of online forums), when Alpie mentioned 'snob' you responded with 'narrow-minded' - which suggested a connection, in your mind. It simply sparked a thought in my mind that 'some people' (vague) appear to equate having wide musical tastes with being 'broadminded' (I would understand the word in much in the way that you did). But using the phrase in that approximate way ("broad tastes GOOD, narrow tastes BAD" because broadminded POSITIVE, narrowminded NEGATIVE) is wrong. It is not better to have broad musical tastes than narrow ones, and broadminded is a wrong use of the word because 'mind' is to do with reasoning and judgement, and taste is not.

                            But if one/anyone uses the word 'broadminded' (me) and 'narrowminded' (you) one is often suggesting that broad tastes are 'better' than narrow tastes.

                            But the news story (if it's still there!) threw up another point: yup, it's here . I don't want to denigrate the research, because the problem may be with the reporter I was struck by the fact that 'avant-garde jazz' was the only music that I wouldn't describe as 'popular music': R&B, soft rock, folk[?], punk, heavy metal. The story didn't mention classical music at all, though it did say 26 styles were analysed. Was one of them 'classical music'? or did it mention symphonic (classical, Romantic), chamber, art song, early polyphony, choral, opera, contemporary &c?

                            In other words, one person's view of having broad tastes may not be the same as another's. 'You lump all popular music together?' 'You lump all classical music together?' Never was De gustibus more applicable. And, yes, I have heard people claiming to like 'all kinds of music' without it even occurring to them to include classical music because it's beyond the reach of their radar.

                            As for car engines, that means nothing more to me than suck-squeeze-bang-blow. But no, I can't predict how other people are feeling either. I do hope the reporter left a lot unsaid …
                            But there is still confusion all round on this. Broad-mindedness is an attitude and approach. If the researchers missed out classical, it's because they have been judgemental about music, and quite narrow-minded in their approach.

                            And it's not about having broad tastes.
                            Last edited by Beef Oven!; 23-07-15, 18:52.

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                            • Beef Oven!
                              Ex-member
                              • Sep 2013
                              • 18147

                              #44
                              Originally posted by Caliban View Post
                              Either way, I imagine there are a number of people who would like to do a reconstruction job on the Beefster!
                              Form a queue please

                              Comment

                              • Beef Oven!
                                Ex-member
                                • Sep 2013
                                • 18147

                                #45
                                Originally posted by Old Grumpy View Post
                                Ah, but what is rubbish to you may not be rubbish to me (or anyone else).

                                OG

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