Broad/narrow-minded

[Old Grumpy]

Part of that problem is that music must be, of all the arts, the most invasive: it can invade other people's lives whether they want it to or not. Should it just be 'tolerated'. Should one 'tolerate' people disliking as well as liking?

Just send them to Coventry!

[Old Grumpy]

Perhaps if we listen hard enough we'll find bits of ice-cream van tunes in his operas. I suppose the tunes might have been different in his time, though. Research project for someone! Theses have been written on stranger topics

Not me please - too narrow minded

[cloughie]

Good points.

But needing a green light or a home signal!

[Beef Oven!]

And then one might query how 'tolerance' might apply. Allowing others, doing no harm to others, but not necessarily adopting oneself, in one's own life? Tolerating what where?

Part of that problem is that music must be, of all the arts, the most invasive: it can invade other people's lives whether they want it to or not. Should it just be 'tolerated'. Should one 'tolerate' people disliking as well as liking?

I think that tolerance in music should be 'applied' in a general sense; to acknowledge that there might be music that we don't like, but to do nothing that might undermine its validity or existence. For example, I would argue that the pejorative comments about Helmut Lachenmann's music that have been posted on here, the description of modern music as 'three farts and a raspberry' and reference to a preference to listen to pneumatic drills are all intolerant attitudes. That these comments arise from discussion about 'modern music' in the Proms, is an interesting example concerning programme policy and intolerance.

[french frank]

I think that tolerance in music should be 'applied' in a general sense; to acknowledge that there might be music that we don't like, but to do nothing that might undermine its validity or existence. For example, I would argue that the pejorative comments about Helmut Lachenmann's music that have been posted on here, the description of modern music as 'three farts and a raspberry' and reference to a preference to listen to pneumatic drills are all intolerant attitudes. That these comments arise from discussion about 'modern music' in the Proms, is an interesting example concerning programme policy and intolerance.

That's why I asked the question about what 'tolerance' was. And whether one should 'tolerate' people disliking as well as liking.

It always puzzles me why people seem to get so angry about people expressing disparaging comments about music they like. There was someone called - was it mumbleford? - who constantly disparaged Mozart. I just kept quiet and thought, 'How silly'. And others are constantly expressing their dislike for the Dream of Gerontius . I think intolerance would be trying to prevent them saying what they feel.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Just send them to Coventry!

That's a sad story. But it reminds me of the situation many musicians find themselves in. As they are rarely well-paid, they often cannot afford the kind of property they require for the amount of practice they need to do. However, neighbourly noise is a problem for many and it isn't only teenage drummers who cause distress.

[cloughie]

That's why I asked the question about what 'tolerance' was. And whether one should 'tolerate' people disliking as well as liking.

It always puzzles me why people seem to get so angry about people expressing disparaging comments about music they like. There was someone called - was it mumbleford? - who constantly disparaged Mozart. I just kept quiet and thought, 'How silly'. And others are constantly expressing their dislike for the Dream of Gerontius . I think intolerance would be trying to prevent them saying what they feel.

If there's one thing I can't stand it's intolerance.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Oh, and I would rather listen to a pneumatic drill than "Panic". I find it a nauseous piece. But that is not my view on Birtwistle's other music.

[Beef Oven!]

Oh, and I would rather listen to a pneumatic drill than "Panic". I find it a nauseous piece. But that is not my view on Birtwistle's other music.

Closet Einsturzende Neubauten fan?

[MrGongGong]

Closet Einsturzende Neubauten fan?

I think he is more of a leftist 1980's chap

[MrGongGong]

Oh, and I would rather listen to a pneumatic drill than "Panic". I find it a nauseous piece. But that is not my view on Birtwistle's other music.

really?

[Beef Oven!]

That's why I asked the question about what 'tolerance' was. And whether one should 'tolerate' people disliking as well as liking.

Of course one must tolerate people who dislike the music that one loves. But it's not about that. It's the disparaging and stupid comments that serve to undermine the music - the point about the comments arising out of Proms programming seems lost on you.

[Beef Oven!]

I think he is more of a leftist 1980's chap

It's a trick - that's a pneumatic drill slowed down X800!

[french frank]

Of course one must tolerate people who dislike the music that one loves. But it's not about that. It's the disparaging and stupid comments that serve to undermine the music - the point about the comments arising out of Proms programming seems lost on you.

Almost totally. I don't think this is a question of 'tolerance', though in some contexts it might be a matter of social interaction, 'oiling the wheels', as they say. But that never appears to have been a consideration here.

No, I don't see how one or two individuals 'undermine' the music. Though, coming full circle on the original linguistic question, the point I would make is that inaccurately labelling something you disapprove of, making it appear completely unacceptable, is what the terms 'snob' and 'elitist' do (or 'narrowminded'). If you declare something 'intolerant' you make it unacceptable; if you simply consider it 'free speech' - and put up with (or 'tolerate') it, you don't.

I would tentatively offer the explanation that the ploy is to discourage people from saying what irritates one, or what one disapproves of, even to intimidate people. It suggests an uncertainty about the rightness of one's own views. No one is going to stop performing The Dream of Gerontius just because Mr GongGong keeps batting on about it. We have to 'tolerate' it/him - and on the whole people do

[MrGongGong]

For the sake of balance

SOME of my chums are doing this today

http://www.3choirs.org/event/dream-of-gerontius

and this work of sublime genius tomorrow

http://www.3choirs.org/event/turangalila-symphonie