Beware of Greeks bereft of gifts

[gradus]

I can't see why we can't swap them for the casts and of course add a supplementary charge for the years of care and attention lavished upon them by the BM.

[smittims]

I think the best argument for returning them is that put by kindofblue in #5: that they look best when in their original place with the others and with the building. Maybe it would be better still if the building was restored to its pre-explosion state (cf the Frauenkirche in Dresden). But I think it's got beyond such a simple situation. The argument has become overlaid with so many strong feelings. I suspect that many who say they should go back are influenced by their re-existing dislike of our present government , irrespective of the sculptures themselves. And the present Greek Government is urging their rreturn as a bid for popularlty inteir own country, as the Argentine Government did overtheir desire to getthe Falkland Islands.So I don't think one can separate the question from politics.

I still believe that it is best to leave them where they are . They've become part of Britain and had an influence on British art and culture and I think the Greeks should take satisfaction from that , as we do from the influence our art and technology has had across the world.

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

The terms “woke” and “do-gooder” are frequently used as insults, as though caring for others and doing good are negative qualities.

[eighthobstruction]

The comparison between the marbles and works of art is not valid. Painters create works of art to be sold, there is a market for them and that's how they make their living. The marbles formed an integral part of a building that has come to represent the apex of Greek civilisation, with all that implies for western civilisation. There is no comparable building in the UK. It was not meant to be broken up and sold. The period of time when Britain acquired the marbles via Elgin was indeed highly turbulent, but things have moved on appreciably since then and Greece is more than capable of taking care of its own legacy. Their return would amount to zero loss for the UK in the grand scheme of things, and a highly mature, decent act of diplomacy. For me this is not in any way 'woke', more 'adult' and 'common sense'. Their acquisition was not even universally acclaimed at the time, notably by Byron, so we are not 're-writing history' either. They should be returned.

Yes there is a lot to unpack in posts #3 and #17. #17 has similar lack of clear thinking....unpack dispel, repel.... I hate (sic) the word woke - with or without parentheses....it is a stupid word....
As far as the Marbles go....smash them up....for all i care....

[oddoneout]

Yes there is a lot to unpack in posts #3 and #17. #17 has similar lack of clear thinking....unpack dispel, repell.... I hate (sic) the word woke - with or without parentheses....it is a stupid word....
As far as the Marbles go....smash them up....for all i care....

Wasn't that part of the original justification for "rescuing" them - that they would be crushed to make concrete?
My dislike of the current usage of "woke" is that it has undergone a form of cultural misappropriation, away from a specific aspect of African-American experience, to become in effect an insult used by certain sections of white society. Clumsy as it may seem(I find it so - but then it's from a culture that uses language differently) it expressed something pertinent to those who originally coined it and used it.

[eighthobstruction]

<<<<<https://adeptales.com/2021/03/war-on-woke/ >>>>

[oddoneout]

<<<<<https://adeptales.com/2021/03/war-on-woke/ >>>>

Thanks for that 8tho - interesting to see the additional uses of the term, and the history, which was longer had I had thought.

[smittims]

I think 'smash them up for all I care' would probably be the answer from the majority, if it were included as an option in a referendum, just as 'scrap Radio3 to save money', 'demolish the snobby Royal Opera House' and 'deport all immigrants' would get a majority vote. Not wise decisions , I think, but democracy at work.

In case there's any confusion,I should like to point out that I didn't use the words 'woke', 'dispel' or 'repel' in my posts. It's easy to find 'a lack of clear thinking' in something one doesn't understand or doesn't agree with. I'm sure many have said this about books by Bertrand Russell and James Joyce. 'Do-gooding' has long been accepted colloquial English for people who do something so they can be seen doing it, what Blake would call a good deed done with bad intent. I've known it used as such since the 1950s, and never confused with actually doing good. In the same way, 'politically-correct' doesn't mean correct, it means political.

[french frank]

I think 'smash them up for all I care' would probably be the answer from the majority,

If you mean the majority in this country, not so - I reported the most recent polling on the issue. Excluding those who had no, or no strong opinion, a very large majority (76%) said they should go back to Greece.

[Serial_Apologist]

The terms “woke” and “do-gooder” are frequently used as insults, as though caring for others and doing good are negative qualities.

As also is "passive aggression" used as accusation of some kind of cowardice in walking away rather than defending one's own position, when it is often the most diplomatic course of action, and a much-needed call to cool things down. "Woke" is often opposed with not speaking one's mind, which is (to me) too often a synonym for abusiveness, while "do-gooder" stands in opposition to that good old notion of self-reliance being synonymous with only expecting the help of others in the last resort - that Victorian idea that "God only helps those who help themselves".

[smittims]

Thanks, S-A; this is getting interesting; maybe we need a new thread for 'the changing meanings of words'.

I've always thought 'woke' meant simply 'assertive (or active) in demanding changes to benefit people of ethnic minorities, specifically Afro-Caribbean'.

But since it's a recent word suddenly used by a wide range of people, inevitably it will be used as a fashion word by people who don't bother to look it up, or who don't find it in existing dictionaries.

As for 'passive-agressive' I think that goes beyond the subject of this thread.