Beware of Greeks bereft of gifts

[Frances_iom]

Who looses their marbles Elgin or UK Govt?

[Serial_Apologist]

This could be rishki...

[smittims]

I see this as one of those questions where some people insist the answer is simple: send them back; they're greek, they belong there, end of. Others say , wait a minute, it's not so simple.

The logical sequel is to return all works of art to their countries of origin.I think that would make a sad world. The only way to see French Impressionist paintings would be in France , and so on. Good for Italy, not so good for Australia. I actually like the fact that a lot of fine English paintings are in Chicago, Sydney,etc. It's a sign of civlisation.

I expect one day some do-gooding , politically-correct British government will send them back. I hope it won't be in my lifetime. And I'm quite sure that, whetever the published terms of their return (loan, temporary exchange, etc.) we'll never see them again. Ther'd be a big row and then we'd give up, like we do with everything else. .

[cloughie]

There seems to be some naivety and some petulance from our PM!

[kindofblue]

I see this as one of those questions where some people insist the answer is simple: send them back; they're greek, they belong there, end of. Others say , wait a minute, it's not so simple.

The logical sequel is to return all works of art to their countries of origin.I think that would make a sad world. The only way to see French Impressionist paintings would be in France , and so on. Good for Italy, not so good for Australia. I actually like the fact that a lot of fine English paintings are in Chicago, Sydney,etc. It's a sign of civlisation.

I expect one day some do-gooding , politically-correct British government will send them back. I hope it won't be in my lifetime. And I'm quite sure that, whetever the published terms of their return (loan, temporary exchange, etc.) we'll never see them again. Ther'd be a big row and then we'd give up, like we do with everything else. .

The comparison between the marbles and works of art is not valid. Painters create works of art to be sold, there is a market for them and that's how they make their living. The marbles formed an integral part of a building that has come to represent the apex of Greek civilisation, with all that implies for western civilisation. There is no comparable building in the UK. It was not meant to be broken up and sold. The period of time when Britain acquired the marbles via Elgin was indeed highly turbulent, but things have moved on appreciably since then and Greece is more than capable of taking care of its own legacy. Their return would amount to zero loss for the UK in the grand scheme of things, and a highly mature, decent act of diplomacy. For me this is not in any way 'woke', more 'adult' and 'common sense'. Their acquisition was not even universally acclaimed at the time, notably by Byron, so we are not 're-writing history' either. They should be returned.

[Serial_Apologist]

The comparison between the marbles and works of art is not valid. Painters create works of art to be sold, there is a market for them and that's how they make their living. The marbles formed an integral part of a building that has come to represent the apex of Greek civilisation, with all that implies for western civilisation. There is no comparable building in the UK. It was not meant to be broken up and sold. The period of time when Britain acquired the marbles via Elgin was indeed highly turbulent, but things have moved on appreciably since then and Greece is more than capable of taking care of its own legacy. Their return would amount to zero loss for the UK in the grand scheme of things, and a highly mature, decent act of diplomacy. For me this is not in any way 'woke', more 'adult' and 'common sense'. Their acquisition was not even universally acclaimed at the time, notably by Byron, so we are not 're-writing history' either. They should be returned.

Sounds like a good idea, as a wise man once said.

It has been said by others that the original intention behind bringing the marbles here was to prevent invading Turks themselves taking them away and maybe grinding them up (to fill potholes, some wit said this morning); but surely Greece has right on its side, whether or not having the ideal conditions for preserving them being a matter for them in the end. Well-paid work could be offered in this country to make replicas for exhibition at the British Museum.

[smittims]

Then again, one could say that as the Parthenon was built by slaves , the statues shoiuld be dumped in Bristol harbour and what's left of the building demolished, and reparations paid to the descendants of the slaves.

I think there are many comparable buildings in the UK. But the Greeks did blow up the Parthenon and showed little or no care for its sculptures. But I didn't mean to start an argument about the legal staus and ownership of the sculptures; we'd be here all day and then no further forward. I just think that the fact that they were originally in Greece is no argument for sending them back. And I don't think the Greeks really care about their quality as works of art. They're using them as a political football. Everyobody hates the Brits. It's time we stood up to this .

Whe I first saw this thread I guessed it might turn into a hornet's nest. I thik it's a subject on which one needs to agree to differ.

[Nick Armstrong]

For me this is not in any way 'woke', more 'adult' and 'common sense'. Their acquisition was not even universally acclaimed at the time, notably by Byron, so we are not 're-writing history' either. They should be returned.

Agreed 100%

[Serial_Apologist]

Then again, one could say that as the Parthenon was built by slaves , the statues should be dumped in Bristol harbour and what's left of the building demolished, and reparations paid to the descendants of the slaves.

I think there are many comparable buildings in the UK. But the Greeks did blow up the Parthenon and showed little or no care for its sculptures. But I didn't mean to start an argument about the legal staus and ownership of the sculptures; we'd be here all day and then no further forward. I just think that the fact that they were originally in Greece is no argument for sending them back. And I don't think the Greeks really care about their quality as works of art. They're using them as a political football. Everyobody hates the Brits. It's time we stood up to this .

Cant say I would blame them if that were true - "our" governments don't exactly set good examples. And I'm not exactly in love with us Brits these days, for all sorts of reasons.

When I first saw this thread I guessed it might turn into a hornet's nest. I think it's a subject on which one needs to agree to differ.

It isn't a hornet's nest, just a discussion about culture and history in which there are bound to be disagreements we can argue out civilly.

[french frank]

They're using them as a political football.

If we could steer clear of the 'politics'/politicians ... there is a moral/ethical case to be put for their return.

The British people, according to the polls, are in favour of the return of the sculptures. The recent poll says 49% favour returning them, 15% oppose returning them, 26% don't mind either way, 10% say What are the Elgin Marbles? (I paraphrase).

In Greece the matter is headline news because the Greeks do care.

A long time ago there was an argument that the scuptures would be better preserved in the British Museum than in poverty-stricken Greece. That no longer applies. (I'm not suggesting that anyone would have half-inched the marbles, but the BM hasn't been ultra-competent at protecting its exhibits lately).

[Serial_Apologist]

A long time ago there was an argument that the scuptures would be better preserved in the British Museum than in poverty-stricken Greece. That no longer applies. (I'm not suggesting that anyone would have half-inched the marbles, but the BM hasn't been ultra-competent at protecting its exhibits lately).

Aside from the issue of Greece being impoverished or not in the wake of its relatively recent treatment by the EU, surely it is a matter for the Greeks how they look after their rightful property once the latter is agreed to be the case?

[french frank]

Aside from the issue of Greece being impoverished or not in the wake of its relatively recent treatment by the EU,

All things are relative, Greece first asked for the return of the marbles in 1835. They didn't join the EC until 1973, so the controversy predates any history with the EU by a century and a half.

surely it is a matter for the Greeks how they look after their rightful property once the latter is agreed to be the case?

And they have dealt with that question, as I suggested, more than adequately.

[Serial_Apologist]

All things are relative, Greece first asked for the return of the marbles in 1835. They didn't join the EC until 1973, so the controversy predates any history with the EU by a century and a half.



And they have dealt with that question, as I suggested, more than adequately.

Indeed - we should just par them on! BTW I should have acknowledged your nice bit of Cockney rhyming slang

half-inched

in #10!

[oddoneout]

If we could steer clear of the 'politics'/politicians ... there is a moral/ethical case to be put for their return.

The British people, according to the polls, are in favour of the return of the sculptures. The recent poll says 49% favour returning them, 15% oppose returning them, 26% don't mind either way, 10% say What are the Elgin Marbles? (I paraphrase).

In Greece the matter is headline news because the Greeks do care.

A long time ago there was an argument that the scuptures would be better preserved in the British Museum than in poverty-stricken Greece. That no longer applies. (I'm not suggesting that anyone would have half-inched the marbles, but the BM hasn't been ultra-competent at protecting its exhibits lately).

When the air pollution in Athens was at the level of rotting stonework in situ, and there was no suitable indoor accommodation, the preservation argument had some weight, but there is now a purpose built museum - with copies where the originals should be - that links visually I gather with the building from which they came, so that argument no longer holds as far as I can see.
BTW, have I understood correctly, that the BM has already been in discussions with their Greek counterparts about reciprocal loan type arrangements which would avoid difficulties with legal restrictions about sending them back to Greece, and would enable the showing of other items in the BM. I think a former Chancellor is involved - but another former chancellor gives the impression of not having known about it...

[french frank]

When the air pollution in Athens was at the level of rotting stonework in situ,

I'd forgotten the pollution aspect. Also sorted. Yes, plaster casts of the BM's sculptures are displayed in Athens along with the originals. The link I gave to the Athens Museum has an interesting video of the history of the sculptures.