Exile - crime and punishment

[Dave2002]

This article makes sober reading -

https://bigthink.com/the-past/unique-cruelty-exile/

Clearly there are major concerns about this way to treat people. Some people will have committed what most will consider to be crimes, but some - perhaps many - in some societies, may have been sent in to exile for political reasons - such as speaking out against injustices in their own society.

[Serial_Apologist]

I think particularly of the Jewish composers exiled from Germany in the 1930s, and the ones who stayed behind or were captured and sent to the death camps. At this time (slightly off-topic) I think of all the great figures, possibly there's a majority who have inspired and influenced me throughout my life, who were Jews: Marx, Engels, Marcuse, Freud, Mahler, Schoenberg, Weill, Eisler, Trotsky, Jesus even....... probably lots more I never realised were Jewish. What would they be thinking now?

[Dave2002]

In Ancient Rome and Greece clearly some people were exiled, and made a come back, so one could think "at least they survived - probably better than being dead".

In more recent times it might appear that being exiled is just a sanitised form of being given a death sentence.

Daniel Finkelstein's book describes several people in his family - some of whom survived - but they perhaps weren't supposed to.

https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/jun/04/hitler-stalin-mum-and-dad-by-daniel-finkelstein-review-a-family-in-peril

[smittims]

For some people, of course, exile was the opening of a door. I wonder if the Amadeus quartet would have done as much if they'd been able to stay in Vienna.

I often wonder aboiut Rachmaninov and Medtner, lifelong friends, pianist-composers in pre 1917 Russia. Afterwards Rachmaninov became a world-famous celebrity with a home in Beverly Hills and another on Lake Lucerne. Medtner became a piano teacher in Muswell Hill.

[Dave2002]

I wonder if the Amadeus quartet would have done as much if they'd been able to stay in Vienna.

That's called looking on the bright side!

Perhaps not - but they might have enjoyed their lives more, as indeed could many more thousands or millions who didn't have to move in order to stay alive.

[richardfinegold]

I think particularly of the Jewish composers exiled from Germany in the 1930s, and the ones who stayed behind or were captured and sent to the death camps. At this time (slightly off-topic) I think of all the great figures, possibly there's a majority who have inspired and influenced me throughout my life, who were Jews: Marx, Engels, Marcuse, Freud, Mahler, Schoenberg, Weill, Eisler, Trotsky, Jesus even....... probably lots more I never realised were Jewish. What would they be thinking now?

And why would they be having a problem with “now”?

[Serial_Apologist]

And why would they be having a problem with “now”?

In some ways they were all internationalists, or perhaps universalists would be a better word - or have been seen as harbingers of internationalism. I wouldn't imagine any of them would think things would turn out as they have.

[Frances_iom]

And why would they be having a problem with “now”?

after all the bible describes several ethnic cleansings before they fully occupied the promised land

[Frances_iom]

There was a very articulate Palestinian (not a politician) on R4 this morning just before 9am - her comment, which I suggest has much to support it, was that the Israeli plan for Gaza was for it to disappear by forcing the majority into exile as happened to their grandparents in 1948 - Egypt would appear to have realised this some time ago hence their near total closure of crossing except to aid. Finally I will note without further comment that the accepted estimate is that 14,500 citizens of Gaza (over 40% children) have been killed - ie just over 10x the Israeli death toll in that vicious Hamas attack.

[french frank]

the accepted estimate is that 14,500 citizens of Gaza (over 40% children) have been killed - ie just over 10x the Israeli death toll in that vicious Hamas attack.

From 2,000 miles away it's easy/simplistic to say that the Israeli retaliation was 'justified' but disproportionate. The Hamas attack played into the hands of Netanyahu's government, not only allowing the Israelis to advance into Gaza but in seeing much of the international community stuck at 'the attack was justified' stage rather than condemning the disproportionality.

One question is, after the Hamas attack, what would have been 'proportionate'? But considerably more to the point; What can the Israelis do towards appeasing the Palestinian people? We seem to be a very long way away from that.

[Serial_Apologist]

From 2,000 miles away it's easy/simplistic to say that the Israeli retaliation was 'justified' but disproportionate. The Hamas attack played into the hands of Netanyahu's government, not only allowing the Israelis to advance into Gaza but in seeing much of the international community stuck at 'the attack was justified' stage rather than condemning the disproportionality.

One question is, after the Hamas attack, what would have been 'proportionate'? But considerably more to the point; What can the Israelis do towards appeasing the Palestinian people? We seem to be a very long way away from that.

Nothing would be my answer, as any directly proportionate response would have involved entering Gaza and randomly murdering the same number of Palestinians, tit-for-tat. The nearest intelligently-operated equivalence would have had to involve immediate blocking off any possibilities of further breaches of the Gaza/Israel frontier using overwhelming numbers of border guards while at the same time arresting and interrogating those in charge of their own security services for permitting the lapse in security in the first place, then charging them with gross dereliction of duty. The technology must surely be there (surely?) to detect the whereabouts of Hamas's tunnel systems, and enter them with surgical precision to deal with the insurgents, arms dumps and Hamas personnel. There was I believe no <<<objective>>> need to carpet bomb Palestinian communities into the dark ages or to carry out a land invasion.

[french frank]

Nothing would be my answer,

I posed the question in order to dismiss it!

[Frances_iom]

There is IMO an excellent 2 page article "What happened in Palestine" in the the Tablet for 16th December (still in the shops) which looks at the mythology behind the notion of the heroic creation of Israel - I don't think it really gives much hope for a peaceful settlement

[Serial_Apologist]

There is IMO an excellent 2 page article "What happened in Palestine" in the the Tablet for 16th December (still in the shops) which looks at the mythology behind the notion of the heroic creation of Israel - I don't think it really gives much hope for a peaceful settlement

Thanks - if that edition is still available locally tomorrow I might get it. Here is no longer the place to offer background explanations and argue out possible solutions. Given the pressure many in both Jewish and Muslim communities must feel not to let "their side" down, one nevertheless only has huge admiration under circumstances encouraging to antisemitism and Islamophobia for those Jews and Muslims who have not betrayed the one humanity one world ideal, as enshrined in the founding principles of organisations promoting internationalist over nationalist perspectives .

[Frances_iom]

if it's not then give me an email