Armenian remembrance 24/4/2015

[aeolium]

Today marks the centenary of the day on which hundreds of Armenian intellectuals were arrested by officials of the Ottoman government, initiating a series of persecutions, forced marches and killings in which it is estimated that over a million Armenians - and possibly as many as 1.5 million - perished.

It is disappointing that even though many countries, as well as the United Nations and the European Parliament, recognize these events as genocidal, there is still no official acknowledgement of this by America and Britain (or at least the Westminster government, since Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland do). Barack Obama referred to the killings as genocidal when he was a senator in 2008, but will not do so as President.

It is additionally disappointing that the commemoration of the start of the Armenian persecution has been clearly deliberately hijacked by events to commemorate the Gallipoli campaign, even though the naval warfare prior to the Gallipoli landings commenced well before 24 April and the actual landings did not take place until 25 April.

It is heartening though that a number of Turkish writers and historians now recognize the severity of the persecution in those years, and it's to be hoped that there will eventually be official recognition of this.

The First World War caused severe loss of life in many countries, but unquestionably no people suffered more grievously than the Armenians.

[french frank]

Yes. So credit must go to the Pope on this.

[aeolium]

Yes. So credit must go to the Pope on this.

Yes: it was the criticism of the papal action that prompted the European Parliament to pass a motion of support and recognition of the genocide.

[Beef Oven!]

Today marks the centenary of the day on which hundreds of Armenian intellectuals were arrested by officials of the Ottoman government, initiating a series of persecutions, forced marches and killings in which it is estimated that over a million Armenians - and possibly as many as 1.5 million - perished.

It is disappointing that even though many countries, as well as the United Nations and the European Parliament, recognize these events as genocidal, there is still no official acknowledgement of this by America and Britain (or at least the Westminster government, since Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland do). Barack Obama referred to the killings as genocidal when he was a senator in 2008, but will not do so as President.

It is additionally disappointing that the commemoration of the start of the Armenian persecution has been clearly deliberately hijacked by events to commemorate the Gallipoli campaign, even though the naval warfare prior to the Gallipoli landings commenced well before 24 April and the actual landings did not take place until 25 April.

It is heartening though that a number of Turkish writers and historians now recognize the severity of the persecution in those years, and it's to be hoped that there will eventually be official recognition of this.

The First World War caused severe loss of life in many countries, but unquestionably no people suffered more grievously than the Armenians.

At least all concerned have learnt from WW1 and other miserable blots on European history. Best to move on, better educated. Turks do not suffer from the guilt complex that we do, IMV and any UN style 'marking' of what their Ottoman ancestors did and didn't do would be a backwards step, I think.

[aeolium]

At least all concerned have learnt from WW1 and other miserable blots on European history. Best to move on, better educated. Turks do not suffer from the guilt complex that we do, IMV and any UN style 'marking' of what their Ottoman ancestors did and didn't do would be a backwards step, I think.

It isn't a question of guilt - no-one can be considered guilty of the crimes of their ancestors. It's a question of recognizing that a heinous crime has been committed, arguably the most heinous that can be committed by any regime. The Holocaust, the Cambodian genocide and the Rwandan genocide have been recognized by the later governments of the countries responsible for them, as well as generally worldwide. It is primarily the Turkish government's refusal to recognize that a genocide was committed by the Ottoman empire in its dying years that makes it harder for those still affected by the event, principally present-day Armenians, to "move on".

[french frank]

The airbrushing out of history, as if it never mattered.

[Beef Oven!]

It isn't a question of guilt - no-one can be considered guilty of the crimes of their ancestors. It's a question of recognizing that a heinous crime has been committed, arguably the most heinous that can be committed by any regime. The Holocaust, the Cambodian genocide and the Rwandan genocide have been recognized by the later governments of the countries responsible for them, as well as generally worldwide. It is primarily the Turkish government's refusal to recognize that a genocide was committed by the Ottoman empire in its dying years that makes it harder for those still affected by the event, principally present-day Armenians, to "move on".

What makes you think that the present day Turkish government does not recognise what happened? I believe they do.

They may not recognise (read, buy into) the hoops that must be jumped through.

Surely the trick is to find a way through this that acknowledges Armenian emotions and present-day Turk sentiment?

[aeolium]

What makes you think that the present day Turkish government does not recognise what happened? I believe they do.

They may not recognise (read, buy into) the hoops that must be jumped through.

Surely the trick is to find a way through this that acknowledges Armenian emotions and present-day Turk sentiment?

Well, rescheduling the Gallipoli commemoration from March to April 24 to coincide with the Armenian commemoration is one indication that the Turkish government is trying to play down what happened, and withdrawing the Turkish ambassador to the Vatican another.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/armenian-genocide-turkeys-day-of-denial-amid-remembrance-for-a-genocide-in-all-but-name-10203090.html

I'm sure there are a good number of Turks, like the Professor quoted in the above article, who do recognize the fact of the genocide, but sadly Erdogan, with his appeasement of Turkish nationalists, will never be one of them.

[richardfinegold]

It isn't a question of guilt - no-one can be considered guilty of the crimes of their ancestors. It's a question of recognizing that a heinous crime has been committed, arguably the most heinous that can be committed by any regime. The Holocaust, the Cambodian genocide and the Rwandan genocide have been recognized by the later governments of the countries responsible for them, as well as generally worldwide. It is primarily the Turkish government's refusal to recognize that a genocide was committed by the Ottoman empire in its dying years that makes it harder for those still affected by the event, principally present-day Armenians, to "move on".

[richardfinegold]

What makes you think that the present day Turkish government does not recognise what happened? I believe they do.

They may not recognise (read, buy into) the hoops that must be jumped through.

Surely the trick is to find a way through this that acknowledges Armenian emotions and present-day Turk sentiment?

Erdogan continues the line that "many people suffered in WW I, Armenians among them". He has continued to refuse to admit that 100 years after the fact, there was a Government sponsored Policy of extermination directed against one ethnic group.

[Keraulophone]

Erdogan continues the line that "many people suffered in WW1, Armenians among them". He has continued to refuse to admit that 100 years after the fact, there was a Government sponsored Policy of extermination directed against one ethnic group.

... not least because he can continue to rely on tacit support from successive US governments which value, above Armenian sensitivities, Turkey's strategic role in NATO.

With no little prescience, my great-great-grandfather took his family from Armenia to Shiraz in Persia, and then on to Calcutta (where my father was born in 1920), around forty years before the 1915 genocide.

http://armeniangenocide100.org/en/

[Beef Oven!]

I'm sure there are a good number of Turks, like the Professor quoted in the above article, who do recognize the fact of the genocide, but sadly Erdogan, with his appeasement of Turkish nationalists, will never be one of them.

Indeed there are many Turks that acknowledge what happened.

Erdogan does not appease Turkish nationalists, on the contrary he seems to want to eliminate them from Turkish political life, in my opinion. He is a populist leader with an enormous voting base. And if he 'appeases' anyone, it's the Turkish electorate that he has in mind.

[vinteuil]

Good piece in le Monde -

http://www.lemonde.fr/europe/article/2015/04/22/pour-les-turcs-reconnaitre-le-genocide-est-une-trahison_4620613_3214.html

[MrGongGong]

Surely the trick is to find a way through this that acknowledges Armenian emotions and present-day Turk sentiment?

My knowledge of Armenian history is largely gained through an obsession with Duduk music (in some ways its sad that the instrument has become a bit of a film music cliche) a few years ago. So my reading was mostly about music and culture so it's maybe not as informed as the knowledge of others.
But it does seem that a great injustice hasn't been addressed and the suffering isn't lessened by those who would seek to downplay it for political reasons.

[richardfinegold]

... not least because he can continue to rely on tacit support from successive US governments which value, above Armenian sensitivities, Turkey's strategic role in NATO.

With no little prescience, my great-great-grandfather took his family from Armenia to Shiraz in Persia, and then on to Calcutta (where my father was born in 1920), around forty years before the 1915 genocide.


meniangenocide100.org/en/[/url]

My Grandparents escaped the Pogroms of the Russian Civil War in a similar roundabout fashion, and the family they left behind were left to the tender mercies of the Einsatzguppen.
The U.S. Congress has pushed many resolutions calling on the Turks to acknowledge the Genocide. They have generally been blocked at the Executive level,
by Obama and many of his predecessors. As the Turks continue to be less dependable U.S. Allies--such as the latest refusal to let U.S. Planes attack ISIS from Incerlik-and the strength of the Armenian Lobby grows, this may change. It has actually been a Campaign issue here, in the run up to the 2016 Presidential election.
Incidentally, I am attending the annual Chicago dinner of AIPAC (the American Jewish Political Action Committee) in a couple of weeks. One of the Speakers will be discussing the Armenian Genocide and these very same issues.