Who were/are the Celts?

[french frank]

Interesting new research on the genetic make-up of the UK population. Haven't yet read the whole article, but even the BBC's potted version is enticing.

[Richard Tarleton]

£22 to read the full article - the BBC summary interesting but supports what I would have guessed to be the case (in the areas I know something about), e.g. Wales, the West Country and Northern Ireland. I'm surprised the genetic groupings have remained as homogeneous as they seem to have done in this study. A random selection round here might prove very confusing. Perhaps the full article tells us how the samples were selected.

Some people are rooted in their part of the country over many centuries, others represent a more random distribution. My 64 great-great-great-great grandparents were widely scattered across different parts of England, Wales and the Scottish Highlands (several "Celtic" strands there ), the eastern USA (multiple strands) and even the Channel Islands - I may yet pay to have my DNA investigated.....

This seems a key sentence:

The finding is the first genetic evidence to confirm what some archaeologists have long been arguing: that Celts represent a tradition or culture rather than a genetic or racial grouping.

[Anna]

No time to read it in full at the moment, but a quick glance at some findings highlighted in the papers:

The Welsh also showed striking differences to the rest of Britain, and scientists concluded that their DNA most closely resembles that of the earliest hunter-gatherers to have arrived when Britain became habitable again after the Ice Age. Surprisingly, the study showed no genetic basis for a single “Celtic” group, with people living in Scotland, Northern Ireland, Wales and Cornwall being among the most different form each other genetically.

“The Celtic regions one might have expected to be genetically similar, but they’re among the most different in our study,” said Mark Robinson, an archaeologist from the Oxford University Museum of Natural History and a co-author. “It’s stressing their genetic difference, it’s not saying there aren’t cultural similarities.”

Most white British people now owing almost 30% of their DNA to the ancestors of modern-day Germans. People living in southern and central England today typically share about 40% of their DNA with the French , 11% with the Danes and 9% with the Belgians. The French contribution was not linked to the Norman invasion of 1066, however, but a previously unknown wave of migration to Britain some time after then end of the last Ice Age nearly 10,000 years ago.

And, By ‘Eck Gladys, a map of different genetic groupings reveals subtle but distinct differences between those sampled in West Yorkshire and the rest of the country!!

[Richard Tarleton]

...and Poldark country pretty distinctive!

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Utterly fascinating, and I'm tempted to pay the £22 for the full article.

[Don Petter]

£22 to read the full article

I clicked the link from the BBC to the Nature article and briefly saw a reference to paying £22 before the full article was displayed, under a heading banner saying 'Online access to this article has been provided by the nature.com content sharing initiative.' Am I especially honoured?

[Anna]

...and Poldark country pretty distinctive!

The genetic map of the British Isles has revealed that the inhabitants of Cornwall and Devon are two distinct groups. Oxford University researcher Sir Walter Bodmer said: 'It's an extraordinary result.'

The study also showed that the Cornish have fewer genes in common with the rest of the UK than the people of Devon.

[french frank]

I clicked the link from the BBC to the Nature article and briefly saw a reference to paying £22 before the full article was displayed, under a heading banner saying 'Online access to this article has been provided by the nature.com content sharing initiative.' Am I especially honoured?

You can read it - message as you say - but can't download it, as a second message identifies you as not being a subscriber.

[aeolium]

I thought it was interesting that the genetic differences between South and North Walians were greater than the differences between English and the Scots - something South Walians have long known of course

I'm surprised that there aren't greater genetic differences within the grouping defined as Central/Southern England.

[Honoured Guest]

'But what could account for the variation in the DNA of those of Celtic ancestry in Cornwall, Wales and Scotland? Time would be one possibility, according to Prof Donnelly. '"If groups have been separated for a period of time, they will diverge genetically so some of the differences we see genetically are the result of those kinds of effects," he said.'

-To a layman, this seems a highly plausible explanation. Since these Celtic groups were forced into their separated peripheries, well over a millennium ago, they've each always bordered and interacted with England, but not with each other.

[Richard Tarleton]

To a layman, this seems a highly plausible explanation. Since these Celtic groups were forced into their separated peripheries, well over a millennium ago, they've each always bordered and interacted with England, but not with each other.

Indeed. The "Celtic" (Cornish, Welsh, Scots and Irish Gaelic) languages share an Indo-European origin, but are mutually unintelligible.

There is a European race which managed to keep both its DNA and its (pre-Indo-Eurpoean) language distinct - the Basque language "an orphan, presumably from an island of aboriginal Europeans that resisted the Ind-European tidal wave" (Stephen Pinker) - and they still show distinct blood groupings.

[Anna]

I thought it was interesting that the genetic differences between South and North Walians were greater than the differences between English and the Scots - something South Walians have long known of course

Yes, that's always been a well known fact - that we are two separate tribes!
What's also interesting is that it confirms there is genetic evidence of the effect of the Landsker line – the boundary in south-west Pembrokeshire - sometimes known as “Little England beyond Wales”

What is surprising is the lack of Viking DNA in the North-East (apart from the Orkneys which have 25%)

[french frank]

I'm surprised that there aren't greater genetic differences within the grouping defined as Central/Southern England.

It seems to be a large area that is genetically similar, but (if I understood correctly ) it was suggesting that there were fewer geographical 'boundaries' which facilitated the spread (whereas within the Orkneys there were differences even between the different islands).

RT - I believe Breton and Welsh are less than 'mutually unintelligible', time presumably being again a key factor, the migration from west Britain to Brittany being much more recent.

[vinteuil]

People living in southern and central England today typically share about 40% of their DNA with the French :

... I don't see why this shd be a surprise - surely the present-day (northern) French are predominantly the descendants of Celts and Germanics - as are most people living in southern / central England?

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

... I don't see why this shd be a surprise - surely the present-day (northern) French are predominantly the descendants of Celts and Germanics - as are most people living in southern / central England?

It's perfectly logical. As the icecap receded, the population spread northwards. The English Channel was then dry land, so England and France were effectively the same country, with no great mountain range as a barrier - only the Rhine, which is thought to have continued along what we now think of as the Channel.