an insightful article on IS

[aka Calum Da Jazbo]

this piece tgave my ignorant old mind important insights that were unknown to it

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

[teamsaint]

this piece tgave my ignorant old mind important insights that were unknown to it

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/...-wants/384980/

Thanks very much for that link.
Really illuminating.

[teamsaint]

Freedom issues are very tough.

I wonder though if this journalist would be writing this stuff if it was her daughter that had just set off to join IS.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/23/if-britons-want-to-join-isis-let-them-go-london-schoolgirls

in any case , she seems to contradict herself, by saying let them go, and then saying that what we really need is tougher exit controls.

[Frances_iom]

is it too easy to point out that if you inculcate a belief in some invisible being who was kind enought to deposit his thoughts on a perfect society 14 centuries ago, including designs for the fashion conscious woman as well as thoughtfully suggested the adoption of a few slaves to do the hard work might be a good idea but merely forgot to suggest that some rationality would be required in interpreting the perfect prose given 1.5 millenia then just what do you expect - that some children will accept these stories at face value with I suspect terrible consequences.

[Beef Oven!]

Freedom issues are very tough.

I wonder though if this journalist would be writing this stuff if it was her daughter that had just set off to join IS.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/feb/23/if-britons-want-to-join-isis-let-them-go-london-schoolgirls

in any case , she seems to contradict herself, by saying let them go, and then saying that what we really need is tougher exit controls.

I don't think she's contradicting herself, because she's only questioning why we don't have the most basic exit checks that almost every other country has. It does seem surprising that 15 year olds can hop onto a plane with just a ticket and passport.

On the main question of youngsters going off to join (or whatever) IS, I think it's a family matter and not for the state to interfere anymore than it already does.

[teamsaint]

I don't think she's contradicting herself, because she's only questioning why we don't have the most basic exit checks that almost every other country has. It does seem surprising that 15 year olds can hop onto a plane with just a ticket and passport.

On the main question of youngsters going off to join (or whatever) IS, I think it's a family matter and not for the state to interfere anymore than it already does.

The headline, which most people will latch on to,( andwhich I accept may have just been taken from the text, but I imagine she had control) does seem to contradict her suggestion that one way to stop this is stronger exit controls. Either she wants to stop this happening , or she doesn't.

We accept state control in lots of areas of life, often more than we should. But there seems a discrepancy between, for instance, some overly intrusive bureaucracy, and the very light touch, ( at best) as young and impressionable citizens ( possibly from failed homes ) head off to a spectacularly dangerous part of the world.

[Frances_iom]

..and the very light touch, ( at best) as young and impressionable citizens ( possibly from failed homes ) head off to a spectacularly dangerous part of the world.

they were not from failed homes (unless all reporters conspired to hide the facxt) - they were affluent to buy airline tickets to Turkey quite a common holiday location in halfterm week - it would appear one was bright enough to 'borrow' her older sister's passport.

Constraining everyday activities (as per ther US t'rrist or tourist approach) merely indicates that those who claim their 'god' allows them to murder etc in his name have won - better education is required tho in this case it would appear scholastic aptitude is no measure of rationality.

[teamsaint]

my " failed homes" comment was a response to Beefy's point about general parental responsibility, rather than a comment on these particular three young people and their backgrounds.

[Beef Oven!]

The headline, which most people will latch on to,( andwhich I accept may have just been taken from the text, but I imagine she had control) does seem to contradict her suggestion that one way to stop this is stronger exit controls. Either she wants to stop this happening , or she doesn't.

We accept state control in lots of areas of life, often more than we should. But there seems a discrepancy between, for instance, some overly intrusive bureaucracy, and the very light touch, ( at best) as young and impressionable citizens ( possibly from failed homes ) head off to a spectacularly dangerous part of the world.

She wants it to stop happening, who doesn't? But she doesn't see it as the state's final responsibility, beyond having in place the sorts of measures on exit at airports that most other countries have. IMV there is no contradiction or dichotomy in what she's saying.

[Beef Oven!]

my " failed homes" comment was a response to Beefy's point about general parental responsibility, rather than a comment on these particular three young people and their backgrounds.

I never said anything about 'parental responsibility' - I said it is a family matter.

[teamsaint]

I never said anything about 'parental responsibility' - I said it is a family matter.

sorry, I misquoted you.

I think in the case of a 15 year old, it's semantics, though.

[teamsaint]

She wants it to stop happening, who doesn't? But she doesn't see it as the state's final responsibility, beyond having in place the sorts of measures on exit at airports that most other countries have. IMV there is no contradiction or dichotomy in what she's saying.

The headline says " If Britons want to join ISIS, let them go".

not sure that sends a message of wanting to stop them going .

[Frances_iom]

...

I think in the case of a 15 year old, it's semantics, though.

they were near 16 (one was over 16) - we accept army recruits at that age - marriageable age under Islam is considerably younger (think about the prophet's wives)

[teamsaint]

they were near 16 (one was over 16) - we accept army recruits at that age - marriageable age under Islam is considerably younger (think about the prophet's wives)

but two are 15.

Sorry, FIoM, but I'm not clear what your point is. Mine would be that somebody somewhere, parents, guardians, in the last resort the state, should be ensuring that minors aren't exposed to really dangerous situations.

[Beef Oven!]

The headline says " If Britons want to join ISIS, let them go".

not sure that sends a message of wanting to stop them going .

Yes, indeed. If they want to, let them go. But rather they didn't. And if they do, it's not for the state to be responsible for ensuring that they are prevented, so long as the sensible and proportionate measures are in place on exit at our airports. Beyond that, it's a family matter, no business of the state. Remember, she's not looking to encourage them to go.

And whether we'd want them back in the UK, is another matter.