Clinging On...the middle class declines on Tuesday 3rd Feb

[Beef Oven!]

Getting back to the programme: the hypothesis that the 'middle class' is declining and that there will be just a 'super rich elite' on one side and the rest of us on the other seems to focus exclusively (does it? predominantly?) on the economic factor. But I feel 'middle class' in spite of the fact that I have much less to live on than many of the 'working class' or even wealthy pensioners.

Just how important is culture in establishing 'class'? I always thought it the most important factor.

I believe that culture is one of the things that define's one's class, but I believe that there are three main things of nearly equal importance.

The other two being the degree to which one has control over one's work/employment, and level of education. And I would argue that these three things have a close and long term interrelationship.

I would assign a slightly higher influencing factor to work/employment over the other two. This aspect does not completely cover the other thing that some people consider very important - material wealth.

I suspect a Marxist influenced perspective would suggest that education and culture arise from one's work/employment position, heavily influential and perhaps actually determining the other two.

[Dave2002]

The best advice for young people now is to look for employment in a career in industries that cater to the needs of the 1 percent. Dog walking and Yacht Cleaning represent the Future.

I know someone who has a business doing yacht maintenance. I suspect it's very profitable - we are not talking about small sailing yachts.

I think being a member of the crew on some of the yachts is very demanding, even though quite lucrative, and suits some young peole for a few years while they improve their bank balance. There aren't too many jobs like that available, and the working conditions may not be great.

I would probably advise most young people not to work for the kind of people you suggest, and to get a decent career, if they can - but that's very difficult these days. Also working out what is a decent career is also tricky. Some people may enjoy their jobs, but not everyone does. I always thought that being a musician would be good, but realistically, unless one hits the bigtime, musicians are badly paid. Pay isn't everything though, but living at a very low level may not be fun either.

One can also criticise some cross over artists (no names here) who would probably be fairly good as classical musicians, but making a decision that one is never going to be the greatest soloists - either on the concert platform or on the operas stage - is not always a bad one - and in some cases very lucrative.

Artists, including painters and sculptors, possibly have an even worse time, and can either barely survive or have private means.

Only a few writers make seriously huge sums of money. Those that do succeed, even slightly, often have another job, at least at first.

Doctors, teachers and engineers don't do too badly. I would never encourage anyone to do accountancy or banking - the world is full enough of people doing "jobs" in those areas. That shows my prejudices. I'm somewhat against law too - mainly because it attracts bright people (nothing wrong with that), but then, at least in the UK I feel that most lawyers and solicitors, other than criminal lawyers, are incredibly ineffective. Only the rich can afford them, otherwise it's best to avoid them altogether as they will tend to deliver zero results for a lot of money. Also, as Dickens wrote, in the UK at least, it is often the case that "the law is a ass".

[Eine Alpensinfonie]

Surely the middle classes hum,and the working classes whistle?

In that case I'm definitely working class. I even whistle chords.

[french frank]

I don't think so , FF. When I think in these terms I think of the purely monetary issues. Many people in the lower socio economic sectors have valued Culture, particularly in the States, with our strong immigrant traditions. In my Parents Generation many Eastern European immigrants would be dirt poor but strongly appeciative of Classical Music and the other Humanities. Today Asian immigrants have continued that. Meanwhile, many very affluent People are Cultural nabobs.

But I'm not sure whether the 'class distinctions' in the US are the same as ours here. What you say is actually what I agree with - but I conclude that the importance lies in being appreciative of the things of the spirit - the humanities, classical music &c, regardless of whether people are 'dirt poor' - unless their poverty excludes them from these cultural pursuits

The best advice for young people now is to look for employment in a career in industries that cater to the needs of the 1 percent. Dog walking and Yacht Cleaning represent the Future.

I cannot think of any advice I disagree with MORE - except for people who really do think money is more important than culture, education. Know Thy Place.

I'm more with Beefy here. I don't think it's the level of personal wealth that matters; one thing that does is the sense of financial security (which I do have). That can certainly be attached to the kind of employment one has.

[ardcarp]

Does the working class whistle anymore? I hope not.

What? You mean you don't like the cheery young lad, smudgy of face, breeches tied up with string, swinging down the lane with a cheery whistle on his way to the next chimney?

Don't get me started on the yacht stigma thing.

[Don Petter]

BBC test what class you are: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-22000973

I came out as Technical Middle Class. 'A small, distinctive and prosperous new class group', which sounded nice.

However, apparently I should be enjoying 'emerging culture such as going to the gym and using social media', neither of which I'd go near with a barge pole, so I'm not convinced of the validity of the exercise.

[Dave2002]

Odd that we were asked if we socialised with artists, but no mention of musicians.

[Serial_Apologist]

I came out as Technical Middle Class. 'A small, distinctive and prosperous new class group', which sounded nice.

However, apparently I should be enjoying 'emerging culture such as going to the gym and using social media', neither of which I'd go near with a barge pole, so I'm not convinced of the validity of the exercise.

Whereas I came out Traditional Working Class, probably as a consequence of not being acquainted with many of the categories of person listed, although this would certainly accord with my employment pattern, pre-retirement.

My own self-classification arises from having worked in clerical occupations close to shop floors in manufacturing industry, and I often wonder in what occupation I would have found employment today, commensurate paywise with my actual earnings, were I 21. Since the decimation of the organised, unionised working class with the transfer of mass production to the misnamed "developing world" from the 1970s on, working class self-identification has largely, I think, been dependent on apocrypal memory and associations of "working class" with strong, relatively stable communities located near to work. The phenomenon of people working alongside me in engineering who had lived in the same district their whole lives and worked their way up through the same firm is possibly fast disappearing. If long-term employment has been supplanted by the freelance individual who has mucked up on the necessary skills hiring him or herself out for the next short-term job prospect, this certainly undermines all previous notions of either being working or middle class.

In terms of the future, sociological and political trends are hard to envisage with any positivity. In the past the main progressive trends that led to social betterment for employed people and the less better of in general, largely arose from a combination of academic theory, posing questions as to how the social wealth could most equitably be distributed without leaving sufficient for reinvestment in infrastructure and greater productivity - thereby encouraging capital flight - and the power of organised labour, expressed through union pressure and reform at the parliamentary level, to force change against the wishes of the rich, and their respective representatives in the state, media and parliament.

Nowadays, in the absence of organised challenge to the rule of capital where once upon a time it really counted, and against all past evidence to the contrary, we all seem dependent on today's apologists for capitalism coming up with some new model, maybe an equivalent to that which many, on all sides of the political divide, saw as having rescued capitalism after World War 2: the problem with this consisting in the fact that there is no strong body of organised labour needing corralling into desiring the kind of stake in capitalism Keynsianism and its associated welfarism appeared ready to deliver long-term. It was, after all, the urgent necessity of class collaboration engendered by the realities of war on civilian as well as military society that had forced the well-to-do to experience working class people as not only members of the human race, but heroes without whom the war would have been lost. This was reflected in the post-war slogans, appealing to "winning the peace".

Unless there is a powerful countervailing force to the rule of capital, the classes - or at any rate what is left of them in terms either of existing employment patterns and prospects, or of historical memories - will obey that tendency to separate into self-defending groups defined by the very nature of the beast; and it is clear which groups have the power to define and shape the future course of developments and events, in terms of determining the script and backing up their version of it.

I don't even see the threat of global warming to be sufficient to counter this.

[eighthobstruction]

Unless there is a powerful countervailing force to the rule of capital, the classes - or at any rate what is left of them in terms either of existing employment patterns and prospects, or of historical memories - will obey that tendency to separate into self-defending groups defined by the very nature of the beast; and it is clear which groups have the power to define and shape the future course of developments and events, in terms of determining the script and backing up their version of it.
.

....going forward and onward....we know now which side the police and armed services will be on....

[Serial_Apologist]

....going forward and onward....we know now which side the police and armed services will be on....

Well of course, even they are being shrunk in line with economic priorities. Which is quite unusual for a Tory regime - remember the huge salary rise Thatcher awarded the fuzz immediately on her election? "There would be trouble ahead" etc. It says something for the parlous state of British capitalism, doesn't it! They're probably counting on the armed wing of the state not turning on its "masters" once the chips are down.

[teamsaint]

and firepower....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31071922

(tasers)

[eighthobstruction]

and firepower....

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31071922

(tasers)

....yeah team....they gotta make sure the dog walkers pick up their dogmuck....they need just a bit of help sometimes to see the error of their ways....taaaaza....

[french frank]

I came out as Technical Middle Class. 'A small, distinctive and prosperous new class group', which sounded nice.

However, apparently I should be enjoying 'emerging culture such as going to the gym and using social media', neither of which I'd go near with a barge pole, so I'm not convinced of the validity of the exercise.

Interesting - I go to the opera, listen to classical music, also go to the gym. In a word (or three): Traditional Working Class (Low income, saver, house owner (i.e. some security), mix with people like myself incl. teachers and university lecturers). Okay, I don't mind...

[ferneyhoughgeliebte]

Interesting - I go to the opera, listen to classical music, also go to the gym. In a word (or three): Traditional Working Class (Low income, saver, house owner (i.e. some security), mix with people like myself incl. teachers and university lecturers). Okay, I don't mind...

Snap! (Except that I "Exercise" rather than "go to the gym".)

[richardfinegold]

But I'm not sure whether the 'class distinctions' in the US are the same as ours here. What you say is actually what I agree with - but I conclude that the importance lies in being appreciative of the things of the spirit - the humanities, classical music &c, regardless of whether people are 'dirt poor' - unless their poverty excludes them from these cultural pursuits

I cannot think of any advice I disagree with MORE - except for people who really do think money is more important than culture, education. Know Thy Place.

I'm more with Beefy here. I don't think it's the level of personal wealth that matters; one thing that does is the sense of financial security (which I do have). That can certainly be attached to the kind of employment one has.

I made my comment half in bitter jest, but there are many who seriously believe that servicing the 1% is the only viable future.
I also am perceiving that Brits and Americans may mean different things when they talk about class distinctions.